Government Operations Committee on April 10th, 2008

[Michael Fortier]

Absolutely. Thousands of contracts are handled by the department, some of them large, but many not so large. They are handled by the department at arm's length, thankfully, from the minister and his office.

When this came up I requested a briefing from my then deputy, Mr. Marshall. I wanted to make sure it had been handled properly. There had been allegations about the way the bids had been valued or looked at, the grid and what have you.

My current deputy has confirmed—and he can speak to this, I am sure—that this contract and the process were properly handled by the department.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Certainly there are thousands of contracts that go out, but thousands of contracts are not the subject of editorials in national newspapers. The National Post, for example, pointed out that you had business relations with CGI. Until 2004, you were their primary public contact for their share offerings. I do not know if you still have—and it is probably not all that necessary to know—shares in Societe Delphes, which was a subsidiary of Delphes Technology, which was a subcontractor of CGI.

The National Post—this is not being partisan—said that you as minister should welcome an investigation into this $400 million contract to review the bidding process, because the Fortier-CGI relationship was too close and cozy. Yet it appears that no real investigation was done. Now Canadian taxpayers are possibly on the hook for a $250 million lawsuit.

Why was the contract not suspended? Why was this issue not examined? We couldn't have avoided dealing with such a large lawsuit?

[Michael Fortier]

The government, it will not surprise you, is sued quite often. We will defend ourselves in court. I will respond the same way as I responded earlier.

This was done at arm's length. Negotiations for this contract began way before I showed up. It was a fair, open, and transparent tender. So somebody is now questioning the process. It's before the courts.

I am not going to suspend every single contract that somebody decides to contest before the courts. We have a legal office, we have a deputy and his department, and I rely on their advice. Their advice is that our position is solid.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I know it's before the courts, but there are two very disturbing allegations in TPG's claim against the government. One is that according to access to information documents the evaluation numbers appear to have been changed. The evaluation numbers in the weighted sections in key parts of the review process are dramatically different from the overall evaluation numbers.

There is also the accusation that after CGI was awarded the contract your department tried to plunder the technical staff from TPG to come and work on this contract.

So number one, there are questions about interference in the evaluation process, which may have been changed. Do you have a fairness monitor to assess this? Number two, is it standard practice to go after employees from a firm that lost a competing bid?

[Michael Fortier]

If I understand you correctly, you're taking the allegations from the plaintiff at face value. Is that what you're doing, Mr. Angus?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

No, I'm asking why, when the National Post says--

[Michael Fortier]

You say it's deserving—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Let's have a clear picture. Let's just have a review and ensure that this passes the smell test. As far as I can see, that wasn't done. I am asking you, based on what they're alleging, do you have a fairness monitor review in place when you look at these contracts? Can you respond to that question?

Secondly, they're saying your department was going after their employees to come and implement this contract. Is that standard practice?

[Michael Fortier]

No, and we do not do these things. But if you're going to read the National Post editorials and plaintiffs' briefs before the courts and take all of that as fact, then you can do that all you want, Mr. Angus. I've explained—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm here to get an answer from you, and I'm not hearing it.

[Michael Fortier]

I just gave you an answer.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

That's why I'm asking you.

[Michael Fortier]

I gave you an answer. It's just not the answer you wanted.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

So do you use fairness monitors in your internal reviews of how contracts are awarded?

[Michael Fortier]

In some cases we have fairness monitors.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

In some cases.

[Michael Fortier]

Yes, you don't have a fairness monitor—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

What is the threshold for a fairness monitor? A $400 million contract doesn't warrant one?

[Michael Fortier]

Not necessarily, no.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Really?

[Michael Fortier]

Yes, really.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I think that would be something you might want to—

[Michael Fortier]

Based on what expertise, Mr. Angus?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Well, a $400 million contract—

[Michael Fortier]

The National Post, or allegations in a plaintiff court file?