Evidence of meeting #3 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was meeting.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau
We have quorum. We're anxious to get going.
I'm told by the clerk that he is still trying to get a solid date for the Treasury Board and from Mr. Toews and Mr. Fortier. Perhaps he'd like to tell us what's happening.
Mr. Clerk.
3:35 p.m.
The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Richard Rumas
Thank you, Madam Chair.
We've been trying to get a number of the departments and agencies that have had supplementary estimates referred to us to appear. Basically, we're having difficulty getting somebody to come first. That's the issue here.
I would suggest, Madam Chair and members of the committee, that you be very firm with staff and tell us to get Treasury Board here, because I believe we can do it. There may be a representative of Treasury Board in the audience.
I might as well do the other matters.
3:35 p.m.
The Clerk
A couple of other smaller agencies, such as Privy Council and the Labour Relations Board, have had estimates and we're trying to tee them up.
The Minister of Public Works was supposed to have appeared next Wednesday. He apparently has an engagement that he can't get out of, in Montreal, and he will come the following Wednesday, which is December 5.
On December 3, which is a Monday, we'll deal with the issue of the payment of public servants and that whole issue that this committee is very familiar with, the payroll issue.
3:35 p.m.
The Clerk
That's being coordinated by a lady from the Canada Public Service Agency, Madame Boudrias. She's coordinating that to bring Public Works officials and Treasury Board officials, so that they have all the right people in place.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
Madam Chair, while I certainly appreciate the work and the diligence of the clerk to arrange and get us going where we need to go, shouldn't we make a decision on where we're going first? Shouldn't we have a collective decision on where we're going first?
I know we only have a limited time and there hasn't been a lot of advance on this, but I thought the intention of the meeting today was to have a committee of the whole to set the agenda. Once we have the agenda set, then obviously it's a clear direction for the clerk so that there's no ambiguity. Some of us might have access to some information, or we might have some other priorities that various members might wish to see step in at some particular point. I'd just bring that to the attention of the chair.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau
Our first responsibility, of course, is to review the supplementary estimates of Treasury Board and of the Department of Public works. We had started right away in inviting the ministers to come, because I think one of the last days for us to report will be on or about December 5 or 6. So we really can't wait very long to review the estimates. That's why we had already started in asking the ministers to come, and it's very important that we get them here as soon as possible.
Mr. Angus.
3:35 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I've looked closely at what's been brought forward. In general, I'm fairly supportive. I believe, as you said, we have to deal with the supplementary estimates. We have to deal with that soon. If we could do that next week, I'd be very happy. Certainly we'd like to see the minister come before us.
On the issue of a follow-up discussion on the sale of public buildings, I think we need to get that done and off the agenda.
I had a chance to ask you about the other issues before we started. It looks to me like something that will get us to Christmas. Certainly there are a million other things we need to deal with, but in order to get to Christmas, this looks like a good housecleaning list to me.
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
I have two thoughts. Obviously if we can get our ministers here as soon as possible, that's wonderful. I think everybody appreciates that's where we need to go with that. But if there are some difficulties during that week period, I have two suggestions.
Number one, I think we obviously need to hear from the Auditor General. There are a number of various topics, and she might potentially be readily available. That might be a fill-in position. If we have difficulty, for the sake of a few days, with picking up a minister, that might be something the committee can consider.
Another point that I would certainly like factored into our agenda here was a result of our meeting the other day with the public service, with Madam Barrados. At the end of the meeting I was honestly blown away when I heard some of the numbers that came out about the turnover rate. This plays right into a number of issues that dovetail with that: why aren't people getting paid, benefits payment clerks, on and on. I honestly had no idea that even in HR there was a 76% turnover of staff in one year. I was astounded.
Between that and 40% in one department and 50% in another, I'm wondering how can a government be efficient and effective? We are government operations. I really believe we have a mandate to find out what the heck is going on that we have that kind of substantial turnover in the federal government. It just should not be acceptable.
There are a number of areas we could go in. We could call in an associate jurisdiction, of one of the provinces—it doesn't matter to me—just as a comparison. There may be a couple of other people. I believe two people were quoted in the actual report. There were a couple of professors locally. There was Mr. Zussman and another one.
These could be potential people, but at some particular point this to me goes right to the crux—as well as our other duties that we are responsible for. There are so many overlapping concerns with this issue of the effectiveness of government. When we have a turnover rate like that, we just cannot be effective. This is something we need to get to the bottom of.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau
I'm wondering if the Public Service Agency of Canada would be able to give us some answers on that. We could ask them.
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
Wonderful--whoever the committee deems to be an acceptable source of information.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Diane Marleau
I'm like you: I'm very concerned about the turnover in terms of employment. You can't get good service if people keep changing jobs all the time.
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
Daryl Kramp Conservative Prince Edward—Hastings, ON
If we have 75 people responsible for pay and benefits—and as the witnesses reported at this committee, it takes a tremendous amount of experience and corporate knowledge to be able to handle all of this—and 50 of them are gone in the one year per se in HR, then there's no wonder we have problems with people getting paid and/or accommodated through various raises and all that. That is maybe only one sidebar to many inefficiencies and levels of ineffectiveness that are taking place.
As a committee in charge of government operations and reporting to Parliament, obviously government is not working the way it should. So I'm really concerned. At some point, when we go through the mandatory things that we should be perusing, I really think this is an optional one that we should explore as soon as possible.
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I was just going to follow up on Daryl's point. I actually had the opportunity to ask Madame Barrados following our meeting the other day, and I specifically asked her about this situation. I asked her because we had some discussions as to how this compared to the private sector, and she just looked at me and said, “We're high, we are really high”.
So what I would like to do is, in addition, ask if there is any possibility that before Christmas we might be able to hear from an expert in this field, somebody who's out of house, who could look at this objectively, in terms of how this compares to other public jurisdictions, but also the private sector as well. It was a wonderful suggestion that we talk to somebody from internal, but I think it's also important that we get somebody external as well. As Daryl said, this really cuts to a lot of the issues we're finding in government services, if it be passport issues, if it be the Canada Revenue Agency...there are any number of different agencies it's important for.
3:45 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
To follow up on Mr. Kramp's suggestion, I certainly agree we need to look at it.
The question I would have is whether one meeting with the government official is going to help us. I have always found on my other committees, for example in agriculture, that what we heard in Ottawa was that everything was wonderful, but when you went out in the field where the cows pooped on the ground, the reality was so dramatically different that we would probably need to look at who we need to bring forward, and I think have a discussion to make sure that we're not comparing apples and oranges, to make sure that if we're going to have a private sector comparison, it is comparable.
I certainly think we need to hear from PSAC. If there's massive discontent and people are leaving for reasons, I'd like to hear that. There has to be something to explain a 76% turnover in a year. It's a big issue. I'm not saying we shouldn't do it before Christmas, but I think we have to make sure that we bring the people forward who we can all agree are going to give us enough of a clear picture that we can make clear recommendations.
3:45 p.m.
Bloc
Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
Thank you very much.
I do not know if what I am going to say is appropriate, but I would like, on behalf of my colleague, Ms. Bourgeois, who is a member of this committee, to suggest subjects to be included in the committee's work plan. On November 28, we could add witnesses such as a representative of the Public Service Alliance. We could also invite one or two representatives of the firm Informetrica. They have a mandate from the Public Service Alliance to look into the sale. It would be worthwhile to meet with representatives of this firm.
We notice that on December 3, we will be discussing implementation of accrual accounting, the regulation of fictitious jobs, the problems with compensation systems and the hiring and retaining of human resources professionals. We would like to add to that list the use of temporary staff and of employment agencies.
Finally, on December 12, several businesses have been suggested for Item 6 regarding the new rules at Public Works Canada. Among other companies we could invite Wizent, represented by Mr. Michel Rotaru.
3:45 p.m.
Bloc
Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
It is a small enterprise from Quebec which had contracts with Public Works Canada.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal