Government Operations Committee on April 21st, 2009

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

I call the meeting to order. I see a quorum.

Colleagues, after much planning and discussion, we've finally managed to convene a meeting here today on the subject of the stimulus package. This will be a full meeting, intended to outline as best we can, through the officials who are attending today, progress in the unfolding of the stimulus package spending that was outlined in the government's budget.

We've all had lots of time to prepare. In fact, these witnesses have been with us on two or three or four occasions. We thank them for that.

I'll just note for the record that we had discussed the possibility of one or more ministers attending. One or more of those ministers were of the view that it was, from their point of view, premature for them to attend, or not the best of times to attend, in their judgment. The committee is negotiating these things through our clerk, very cordially, and each of the ministers has suggested a later date. We can discuss that later ourselves.

I'm going to ask the witnesses if any of them have an opening statement today on this subject.

Mr. Smith.

[Alister Smith, Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for the invitation to appear before this committee to discuss the economic stimulus package.

With me today are two colleagues: from the Privy Council Office, Tim Sargent, assistant secretary to the cabinet, liaison secretariat for macroeconomic policy; and from the Department of Finance, Paul Rochon, senior assistant deputy minister, economic and fiscal policy.

We don't really have an opening statement. We would be very pleased to respond to the committee's questions on budget implementation, to the best of our ability.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Well, that's a heck of an intro. Thank you. We can go right to questions.

Again, colleagues, we've had at least one planning meeting for this. I think members will have a pretty good focus on where we want to go.

I'll go first to Ms. Hall Findlay.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, gentlemen, for coming back.

The questions this morning follow on what we've been trying to elicit, in terms of information, at a number of past meetings, and that is simply focusing on vote 35 and the $3 billion, on where, when, and if any of that has been spent.

Maybe I can start with this open-ended question: has anything been spent, and if so, where? Perhaps you could elaborate on that. If not, then I'll go to more specific questions very quickly.

[Alister Smith]

Thank you very much.

Vote 35, as you know, is now operative as of April 1, and will be used to make allocations for budget initiatives--that is, for the programs, not for projects--until the end of June. So there are allocations from vote 35, and those will continue.

We will be providing information on those allocations, as we have said a number of times before, when we table supplementary estimates, which will probably be May 14 or thereabouts, and in the June quarterly report, which will be sometime in the first half of June, I think.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

We did talk last time about the June quarterly report, but the reason given for vote 35 was the need for speed, the need to get money out the door. That's different from an allocation. An allocation is quite different from actually cutting a cheque.

First off, just point-blank, has any money been spent? We're now at April 21. The reason for vote 35 was so that money could start being spent as quickly as possible. We're now almost into the last week of April. Has anything been spent at this point?

[Alister Smith]

Could I just mention, as well, that there are several elements to this overall budget package in addition to vote 35? They include the Budget Implementation Act, which itself contains $7.6 billion of direct program spending, as well as other tax measures and loans. In addition, we will have a supplementary estimates package that will also have budget items in it. There's a large overall package of $20 billion or so of funding for 2009-10. TB vote 35 is only one of those elements.

Treasury Board vote 35 is an allocation mechanism, like supplementary estimates, that allocates to departments for particular budget initiatives. You can't tell from TB vote 35 whether in fact the item is spending or not spending. In fact, that depends on what the departments are doing with the particular program initiative.

In a number of instances, we know that programs are open for application, such as the admissible infrastructure loan program and others that have been announced. Funding will occur in due course as those applications are approved.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I want to just clarify that my questioning relates to funding coming out of vote 35--the $3 billion specifically. I understand that it applies to the larger amounts in the budget and that the $3 billion is not outside of the budget. My questioning is specifically related to the stress placed on having a $3 billion amount without, for the purpose of speed, the normal pre-approval. It is that focus that I want to insist on in the questioning, although I will also just note, for future reference, your comment that once the allocation is made to a department, you cannot confirm whether a cheque has been cut. It is the department that has to tell us.

In terms of our discussions about witnesses, we had talked about the need to have representatives from each of the departments. Can you tell me right now which of the departments that have had the allocation would be the best for us to be interviewing or to have come as witnesses at this point in time?

[Alister Smith]

I think you may want to ask a range of departments to come forward. The allocations will be quite clear in mid-May, when we table supplementary estimates. They will cover a range of departments. You may at that point want to decide whom to ask to come forward.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Are we not going to see any of the information about those allocations until mid-May?

[Alister Smith]

That's what we have said all along, that we would be presenting the information from Treasury Board vote 35 in supplementary (A) estimates in mid-May, when we table supplementary estimates, and in June, when we provide the quarterly report.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Is it correct for me to assume that if we will not even see the information on the allocations to the various departments until mid-May...? Can those departments be issuing cheques and spending any money before then, or are they only going to be in a position to actually spend money after that information is public?

[Alister Smith]

No, they're able to spend money as of the time they receive all the authorities from Treasury Board and the approvals are in place.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Do we have information as to when those authorities are actually granted or have been or will be granted by Treasury Board? You understand what I'm trying to get at here. We would really like to know, first, whether money has been approved, and then where it has been approved, whether it has been spent, and where it has been spent.

[Alister Smith]

We've said all along, and our ministers have said as well, and we can't really diverge from that, that we will be providing information on those allocations in mid-May.

I'll just add that we are starting the preparation for the June report, and we are collecting information as well from departments in the first couple of weeks of May as to spending and to progress on individual items. That is at the program level. As I mentioned before, we're talking about the approval level here. Those processes are now nearly complete.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Why can we not have the information on what those approvals are at this point?

[Alister Smith]

They are cabinet confidences until such time as we table them in Parliament, until we table the allocations from this vote.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Is it possible for you today to even tell me five departments that have had these allocations made, even though we're not going to get the information officially until May? For our own purposes--and our job is to keep the government to account on $3 billion worth of spending that was done in an unusual circumstance for the purpose of getting the money out quickly--we want to be able to ask those departments where they're spending money, if they are, and where it's going. So is it possible even to have the four, five, six departments that have been given the okay, as it were, so far?

[Alister Smith]

I would prefer not to provide any of that information at this time until we table supplementary estimates.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Just for the record, it is very hard for us in opposition to hold the government to account on spending that we approved under unusual circumstances, specifically to get stimulus money out the door more quickly than it might otherwise have gone, and it's very difficult for us at this point to even know if any of that money is going out the door and how and where. You can understand our challenge here.

[Alister Smith]

Yes, I do, but there have been a large number of announcements on a large package that goes well beyond this particular vote. The Budget Implementation Act was passed in March, and there have been a number of announcements, a lot of applications processes are open and under way, and progress has definitely been made.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

But, with respect, we've heard announcements on the same issue three and four times. An announcement is absolutely not the same thing as spending money. Our concern right now is that we want to know for sure what money is being spent, if it is being spent, and where and how.

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

[Le président, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Good morning, Ms. Bourgeois.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good morning.

Good morning, gentlemen. Perhaps Mr. Smith or Mr. Sargent can answer me.

If I correctly understood, you're telling us that the funding allocated under Vote 35, the $3 billion, is for program-related spending. What is important for me is that, if this is program-related spending, then these are new programs. How can we ensure that those programs really meet the needs of each department? How can we ensure that there won't be a program put in place simply because someone wants it and it doesn't necessarily meet a need? How as well can we ensure that accountability mechanisms are really in place? That requires planning. Since time is so short, will the departments have time to plan?

[Alister Smith]

These allocations certainly are limited to what's in the budget, so they typically are new programs for new initiatives. In some cases they're top-ups of old initiatives, and they're all viewed as being important in helping deal with the economic situation we find ourselves in, so they're largely stimulative in that sense.

Your question is a broader question, I think, about whether these meet other needs in departments that perhaps have not been met and whether they fill in gaps, and I think the answer would be that they weren't intended to, no. But every year departments look at their programs, look at the objectives, and decide whether or not the programs need to be revamped or improved in some way to meet those needs. Strategic review is one exercise that we have in place to try to look at whether programs are in fact meeting Canadians' needs, but it's a broader issue and it's a longer-term issue as well.