Government Operations Committee on Feb. 5th, 2009

[Rob Anders, Conservative, Calgary West, AB]

Okay, I've followed that trail as far as I think they're going to allow me, Mr. Chair.

I'll switch to a separate subject then. I'm guessing this is more to Mr. McBain as well. There is a mention here with regard to funding a joint learning program with the Public Service Alliance of Canada to improve labour-management relations. Judging by the numbers I see here, it looks like it's around $4 million. Does that sound about right?

[Mike Hawkes]

I don't believe that's in our estimates, sir.

[Rob Anders, Conservative, Calgary West, AB]

Oh, never mind then. I guess we'll leave that to the next set of witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Thank you, Mr. Anders.

We'll go to Ms. Hall Findlay, for five minutes.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.

There are a number of people who are expecting more from you than you're able to provide us this morning.

I have a question about there being no requests for payment in lieu of taxes to municipalities. I have received a number of complaints from a number of municipalities that the federal government is not fulfilling its obligations. There are two pieces to that. There is the general complaint that whatever is being received is simply not enough and doesn't reflect real comparison to what the municipalities are charging other property owners for property taxes. I can't give you the specifics now, I'm going from memory, but a number of municipalities are saying they simply haven't been paid that amount. And I refer to the fact that there's nothing in here.

Can you comment on that at all, please?

[John McBain]

In fact the supplementary estimates do include an amount for payments in lieu of taxes or taxes directly. My colleague referred to that I think in his--

[Mike Hawkes]

Because there are inflationary pressures.

[John McBain]

--opening remarks as well. So a portion of them are included in some of these numbers.

The department administers a payment in lieu of taxes program, where the Minister of Public Works makes payments on behalf of other government departments that are custodians. In addition, there is a dispute advisory panel that is constructed as a result of the Payments in Lieu of Taxes Act. Municipalities can make representation to that panel if they feel the amounts or the approach the government is taking with respect to their payments is not appropriate.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Perhaps you can help me with my own newness and ignorance of the process. When I look at the line here, there's nothing in terms of the payment in lieu of taxes to municipalities and other taxing authorities. You said you've referred to them in other places in terms of inflationary pressures.

Where do I find what amounts actually do get paid to municipalities?

[John McBain]

I can tell you that the budget this year is approximately $450 million, which is paid to over 1,800 taxing organizations or entities across Canada. We didn't ask for it specifically in these supplementary estimates, but it is included as an item in the requirements of the department.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you. I'm good.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Thank you, colleagues.

This will conclude the portion of our meeting dedicated to Public Works and Government Services. We will immediately go to witnesses from Treasury Board Secretariat, so we will suspend while the witnesses rearrange themselves.

Thank you to Mr. Hawkes and Mr. McBain for appearing today.

You have agreed to provide additional information to two members. Unless another member indicates otherwise at this point in time, it would be sufficient if you provided that information to the member directly or through the clerk. But unless there's an indication around the table, we will not distribute all that information to all the members. If that's acceptable to members, you may proceed to respond to the questions from those two members on that basis.

Thank you.

Now we'll suspend.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

I call the meeting to order.

Colleagues, we're now entering the second phase of this morning's meeting. We have witnesses here from the Treasury Board Secretariat. We thank them for appearing on very short notice. Parliament itself has a fairly short timeframe in which to deal with these supplementary estimates (B).

Appearing from Treasury Board, we have: Kelly Gillis, assistant secretary, corporate services; Alister Smith, assistant secretary, expenditure management sector; and Hélène Laurendeau, assistant secretary, labour relations and compensation operations.

I understand that Madam Laurendeau must leave at one o'clock sharp. We'll accept that when the time comes.

I understand that the witnesses have not come here with an opening statement. There's no need to, as we invited them. I'm sure colleagues have some questions related to supplementary estimates (B), but if they drift beyond that, the witnesses are professionals and have a lot of information about a lot of things in their department.

I'll turn to Mr. McTeague for the first round of seven minutes.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Mr. Chair, thank you very much.

Thank you for appearing on such short notice. We, too, are still finding our feet and our legs.

I have a question for you, Madam Laurendeau, if I may. I appreciate your time. Perhaps I could get right to it. I'm a little confused, in that I note Treasury Board documents refer to executive compensation programs and who's eligible to receive such compensation. Is it fair to say that senior members of the RCMP receive that compensation, particularly when it comes to bonuses and merit pay?

[Hélène Laurendeau, Assistant Secretary, Labour Relations and Compensation Operations, Treasury Board Secretariat]

If you're referring to the executive policy, it refers to a senior cadre that are members of the public service, so that would not cover RCMP members.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

It doesn't. So that would suggest, then, some kind of differentiation between those who are under a collective agreement versus those who are not?

[Hélène Laurendeau]

Are you talking again, sir, about the RCMP members?

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

That's correct: the senior members.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

Members under the RCMP Act are not covered by collective agreements. They're not employees of the--

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

I understand that, but would senior members receive some package equivalent to what is available under executive pay?

[Hélène Laurendeau]

I wouldn't be in a position to tell you.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Could you possibly provide that to this committee?

With the chair's indulgence, as he suggested before, we appreciate that some of the questions may not have answers, but it would certainly be helpful to the committee to find out if there is an equivalency of senior executive members of the RCMP receiving executive compensation for merit, for things like, for instance, efficiencies in terms of lessening financial burdens. One would hate to think that there are fewer and fewer police officers on the beat as a result of compensation that might be linked to finding efficiencies. Could you please provide the committee with that?

I'll turn right to the question, though, of section 50b in the line items here in the vote. There is an increase of some $17 million. That's a pretty hefty increase of almost a quarter of the agency's program spending under the Public Service Human Resources Management Agency. Could you let us know why that happened? What circumstances led to that increase?

Mr. Smith?

[Alister Smith, Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Thank you.

I can start and try to give you some overall indication of what that supplementary estimates request was for. We may need to refer to our colleagues at the agency for more detail. We'll respond if you need it.

The CPSA is looking for funding of $17.1 million for a number of initiatives. One is to continue its work with public service modernization and public service renewal. A second is classification reform activities for 2008-09. A third is pay equity litigation support activities. A fourth is the government advertising program for 2008-09. In addition, there are some smaller amounts for transfers to support the work of the national managers' community secretariat.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Mr. Smith, would you be able to provide that breakdown to the committee at some stage?

[Alister Smith]

Yes, I can.