Evidence of meeting #2 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was terms.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:30 p.m.
Assistant Secretary, Labour Relations and Compensation Operations, Treasury Board Secretariat
So it was a combination of both.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
This coming year you identified that there were six, including this one that is being resolved. What do we anticipate the costs of these other ones will be, just in terms of legal fees? Is there any way to have any estimate?
12:30 p.m.
Assistant Secretary, Labour Relations and Compensation Operations, Treasury Board Secretariat
At this stage, for the other complaints, we haven't determined whether or not we would need the support of outside counsel. There are still internal activities for the management of those complaints, but those are not part of that particular amount.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
So the $6.6 million is just for the legal fees. Now, in terms of the actual settlement, do we know what the final number is going to look like?
12:30 p.m.
Assistant Secretary, Labour Relations and Compensation Operations, Treasury Board Secretariat
The final settlement, in terms of payouts—
12:30 p.m.
Assistant Secretary, Labour Relations and Compensation Operations, Treasury Board Secretariat
—or in terms of cost?
12:30 p.m.
Assistant Secretary, Labour Relations and Compensation Operations, Treasury Board Secretariat
In terms of payouts, we have settled for a lump sum amount of $4,000 per employee for members of the groups that have filed complaints.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
12:30 p.m.
Assistant Secretary, Labour Relations and Compensation Operations, Treasury Board Secretariat
It is approximately $300 million. The population is about 90,000, so you can do the math.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Very good.
Okay, thank you. That answers my initial questions. I appreciate it.
12:30 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I wasn't here when we chose to invite Treasury Board as our witnesses for the supplementary estimates, and they didn't come with opening statements, so I guess it's kind of a wide-open conversation. But looking at the supplementary estimates on pages 200 to 203, we're dealing with massive amounts of money at the bottom here, not just the fairly narrow questions being asked regarding funding support for pay equity litigation, etc.
My interests and my questions are perhaps on the broader policy issue and the problems you're going to have, I believe, with legal challenges associated with capping compensation, capping the wage—the wage freeze, essentially—associated with this budget.
Now, I come from a trade union background, and free collective bargaining is a constitutional right, upheld recently by the Supreme Court of Canada, in 2007, and British Columbia, when they tried to interfere with collective agreements.
What kind of reserve or what are they setting aside for what could be a landmark appeal or what could be the legal challenges associated with what the government is asking you to do, in terms of capping public servant salaries?
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Derek Lee
Just a word to the witnesses: the terms of reference here today are the supplementary estimates and not the federal budget. This is perhaps a huge issue, and to be sure, at least some of us in the House of Commons are going to be getting to it. But if you feel you don't have the answer for Mr. Martin.... I mean, I'll let you attempt to answer, and I realize there's some policy stuff that goes in front of any financial planning you may be making. I'll let you attempt to answer, but don't feel you're absolutely bound to clear up the issue totally today.
12:35 p.m.
Assistant Secretary, Labour Relations and Compensation Operations, Treasury Board Secretariat
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I don't think we are in a position to comment on the actual budget announcement. The partial answer I could give, however, is that with the parameters of increases that have been announced in the recent budget, we were able in the fall to settle some collective agreements through collective bargaining. I would flag that to the attention of the committee and leave my answer at that, at this stage.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Certainly the Public Service Alliance has voted on, and accepted, a final offer. A lot of us have our opinions on how that final offer was foisted on them, but that's neither here nor there.
But there are tables that are still negotiating. In your own professional experience, Madame Laurendeau, how will it be portrayed as bargaining in good faith when you sit down at the table if you say we can negotiate everything except the only important thing, which is salaries? In other words, you get to negotiate what colour to paint the lunchroom, but we get to dictate what salary we're going to pay you.
In your professional opinion in labour relations and as a compensation expert, does that fly in the face of the recent Supreme Court ruling that free collective bargaining has been reaffirmed as a constitutional right?
12:35 p.m.
Assistant Secretary, Labour Relations and Compensation Operations, Treasury Board Secretariat
With all due respect, I don't think I can comment on that latter question.
However, I would say you are right. We still have some collective bargaining ongoing. I think it would be essential that we leave the collective bargaining at the bargaining table. That is said with due respect.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Could I ask a specific question, then? Will the imposed wage cap result in any rollbacks to any groups that have already settled? Are there any situations where year two, three, and four were settled at rates higher than 1.5% that will now be required to accept only 1.5%?
12:35 p.m.
Assistant Secretary, Labour Relations and Compensation Operations, Treasury Board Secretariat
I would not be in a position to actually talk about the details of the implementation of the announcement, other than to say that the figures have been announced as they are. Until we know what the legislation brings, I am not in a position at this stage to answer this question.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
But do you know of any groups that have settled for a higher rate than 1.5%?
12:35 p.m.
Assistant Secretary, Labour Relations and Compensation Operations, Treasury Board Secretariat
There are indeed groups that have settled at a higher rate for those years, yes. That is public knowledge.
12:35 p.m.
Assistant Secretary, Labour Relations and Compensation Operations, Treasury Board Secretariat
Out of memory, I can tell you that the university teachers, the correction services, the Canada Revenue Agency, and at least one separate employer I am aware of have settled above the parameters that are known. Those are the ones that come to mind, but that's by no stretch of the imagination a complete list.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
All right.
So within the supplementary estimates there is funding for continuation of the classification reform program. This is actually news to me. I thought you gave up on the reclassification years ago. Is that still a project, to try to reclassify the public service? I remember years of disastrous tinkering with trying to reclassify, and everybody threw their hands up and walked away. I'm surprised to see you're still trying.