Evidence of meeting #39 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was servants.
A recording is available from Parliament.
November 5th, 2009 / 4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Anders Conservative Calgary West, AB
Thank you very much.
I note that you've given us some interesting testimony and quotes about some of the issues and efficiencies on the part of the federal civil service and what have you. I wonder whether you might be able to comment with regard to unionization and unions, or the environment created by them, and the challenges that provides, and what you think should be done or what ways there are of navigating that.
I imagine that there sometimes may be some difficulties with regard to somebody who you may want to let go or whatever, but there are various protections built in and that type of thing. I wonder if you could comment on some of those issues and give us your thoughts on that.
4:30 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
We made a decision in the Government of Canada to unionize or allow for unions in the 1960s, and my experience working with the unions has been pretty good. They are sometimes frustrated with me and I'm sometimes frustrated with them, but that's the way it is, because they have a different point of view. I have not viewed it as one of those big problems that we have to deal with, from my perspective, and I'm talking about my perspective.
The case that was brought to the Supreme Court and defined the political activities and made this world so complicated was brought by the unions. So that's their perspective on this, and the Supreme Court ruled, so that's the direction in which we are going.
As any manager would tell you, you have to be careful and mindful of the employees in your organizations. I think unions play a role in representing those interests and in reminding you of your obligations. I know that it is difficult to dismiss people who are not performing, but it can be done. I think people just have to set about doing it, if that's what they feel they have to do. It isn't easier in a non-unionized environment, either.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Anders Conservative Calgary West, AB
Thank you.
I'm going to pass the rest of my time on to Mr. Warkentin.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I just want to talk a little bit about partisan activity. I know we've talked a lot about it today, but I think it's important that we define exactly what would constitute partisan activity, because I'm getting the sense that Ms. Hall Findlay is concerned about the implementation of certain government programs.
When my party was in opposition, I disagreed with many programs that were brought forward, but I recognized that the civil servants had a duty to perform what was being asked of them by the government of the day in terms of implementing certain policies.
What defines a partisan activity? What things are limited? What is the difference between somebody who's being asked to, say, attend a fundraiser or put up campaign signs, and somebody who's asked to implement a program that the government of the day has legislated or regulated?
4:30 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
The difference is actually embedded in the legislation and I'm not sure whether it's too restrictive. The legislation says, “in support of...a political party”, so it's activity that I would differentiate in terms of being in support of the party, as opposed to a properly taken government policy. So if there's a government policy and direction, there is an obligation on the part of the public servant to be implementing and carrying that out.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Okay. That gets a little bit fuzzy, only to relate to Ms. Hall Findlay, insomuch as there being a government policy that may indirectly, because it's a popular policy if implemented, benefit a political party. Just because the party of the day is implementing something that's perceived to be a good thing, it has an effect on the party that the government is part of. Do you view that as a complication?
4:35 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
It is complicated, but in my dealings with ministers--and I've met many over the years--they have a pretty clear understanding of what their roles and responsibilities are, of what's political, and of what's their administrative responsibility. There can sometimes be temptations to cross those lines, but people tend to understand them.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Are you concerned right now that there's a crossing over? When Martha asked the question, she seemed to have a sense that there was a systemic problem in that crossover that was different from how it may have been in the past.
4:35 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
That's a very interesting question. I have told people, the government, and anyone who has had this discussion with me that if they had specific instances and issues that involved public servants, I would take a close look at them.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
I don't have examples. I hear innuendo sometimes in the media, but never specific examples, so I understand your challenge. I think if Ms. Hall Findlay has examples she'll present them as well.
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Ms. Barrados, I am going to come back to a question I asked you earlier during a conversation. You mentioned the subject in your opening statement today. You said you hoped very much to reduce staffing times. As I stated earlier, you have worked very hard on that front. However, you said that you have realized the expected gains in performance in terms of how fast processes are completed.
First, I would like to know who you went digging for the reasons why staffing takes so long. Is it because jobs were being slashed in order to save money? Is it because employees are overworked? I would like to know why.
Second, when employees are not replaced, there is a very negative impact on the remaining employees in the unit. This creates the potential for mistakes, an excessive workload and stress. As you say, it can encourage managers to start hiring temporary casual staff. It also has the indirect effect of putting some people ahead of others.
Do you have the authority to conduct a study of working conditions that are deteriorating specifically because of the staffing time, which seems to be getting longer? Part of your mission — which I read carefully — is to protect the integrity of the system. Do you also have to check whether the intergrity human beings as employees is also being preserved?
Finally, my last question is this. You say that you are engaged in succession planning for the Commission. You would like two new commissioners to be appointed so that you can begin staggering appointments and start making the transition to the new commission. I am perfectly willing to help you. Do you need a motion from the Committee that would help you find the extra staff you need to continue this fine work?
4:40 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
Thank you. The Committee's efforts have always been useful. However, the appointment of new commissioners is the responsibility of the Governor-in-Council.
4:40 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
As a result of the way the new Act was implemented, the term of all Commission members ends at the same time, that is, in May 2011. I think it would be far better to start appointing new members so that there is a transition period.
4:40 p.m.
Bloc
4:40 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
They can serve another seven-year term. Personally, I think that I have done my share and that it is time for me to hand the reins over to some else. The other commissioners share that sentiment: we are prepared to work harder for a while, but not for another term. There was to be a smooth transition.
Regarding your question about staffing times, it really is a priority for managers, I think. In departments where there is a good planning system — we did that analysis in our report —, a better, more organized system for monitoring staffing, staffing is completed 30% faster than average and they have a better management system. We have also had pilot projects in which we showed that a staffing process can be completed in 45 days with the current system.
Your other question was whether we have the authority to study the consequences of delays. I think so. We can do it when we analyse the time it takes to staff positions. We can always ask for the results, the consequences, the impact. It is harder for us to begin with a study of the impact on staff in the workplace and then study staffing. We have to start with staffing and then look at the impact.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
A while ago we talked about temporary workers. Do you know the percentage of temporary workers who are public servants and why?
4:40 p.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
The permanent staff of the public service is about 86%. The temporary workforce is about 14%. That does not include contractors.
A number of the questions that Madam Bourgeois has had in other discussions have been related to temporary workers who are not captured as people who fall under the Public Service Employment Act. If you bring in somebody by contract, they're not counted, so there's a large number of people who come in by contract as well.
This occurs because public servants are trying to get the job done. My big preoccupation is that this is an inappropriate way to staff the permanent public service. If there's a need for temporary workers and people do temporary work, that's fine, but if it's a way to recruit into the public service, I have a problem with it.
