Government Operations Committee on March 10th, 2009

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

I call the meeting to order.

This morning we're continuing our review of the main estimates. In this case it's a series of votes under Treasury Board.

We're delighted to have with us this morning the minister responsible for the Treasury Board, the Honourable Vic Toews, President of the Treasury Board. He's joined by a number of officials who have been good enough to accompany him. I'd better get them all on the record in the beginning. They include Wayne Wouters, secretary of the Treasury Board; Alister Smith, assistant secretary, expenditure management sector; Mr. Dan Danagher, executive director, program integrity; and Ms. Kelly Gillis, assistant secretary, corporate services sector.

Thank you very much for coming.

As is customary, we'll open with the minister, who will open the issue of the main estimates for Treasury Board.

Minister Toews.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, President of the Treasury Board]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I will in fact make a presentation, and after I have concluded, my officials and I will be pleased to answer the committee's questions.

Let me begin by saying that I am pleased to be with you today to discuss the priorities of the Treasury Board portfolio in the context of the current economic climate and our role as the management board of the Government of Canada.

As we are all aware, we are facing tough economic times. Just over a month ago, our government brought forward Budget 2009, Canada's economic action plan. This multi-year plan outlines many measures we will be taking to stimulate the economy, protect Canadians hit hardest, and secure Canada's long-term prosperity. For these measures to have a real impact, they must be implemented as quickly as possible.

Today I will give you an overview of how the Treasury Board portfolio supports the government in implementing its agenda. I will also speak about the ongoing priorities of the Treasury Board Secretariat.

The stimulus in our economic action plan represents 1.9% of our economy for the next fiscal year and approximately 1.4% for the year after. We need to get this money out the door quickly to help Canadians in the short term. Even my honourable colleagues in the opposition have acknowledged that for these measures to have a real impact, they must be implemented as soon as possible. At the same time, we need to ensure proper due diligence. As the management board of the government, we at the Treasury Board Secretariat make sure that this process is handled properly and that we not only get the funds flowing, but we do so responsibly.

We are putting in place a number of measures to ensure that funding flows to those who need it most. One of these measures is a special central vote in main estimates of $3 billion, assigned to the Treasury Board Secretariat, for budget implementation. It will allow our government to provide initial funding for ready-to-go initiatives announced in Budget 2009 in advance of the normal parliamentary supply schedule. Reporting on allocations on the vote will be done in supplementary estimates and in quarterly reports to Parliament on the economic action plan. All the funds distributed will be thoroughly accounted for.

In keeping with the need to be responsive and responsible, we have established clear conditions for the use of this vote to ensure that the appropriate checks and balances are in place. For example, this fund can only be used for economic action plan initiatives announced in Budget 2009. Every initiative funded from this vote will require the approval of Treasury Board. Existing policy requirements on accountability and reporting will have to be met. In this context, it should be noted that grants and contributions payments will be subject to the transfer payment policy. Also, the use of this vote is time limited. Funds can only be allocated between April and June 30, 2009.

Contrary to what has been reported, we chose to create a special vote to provide bridge funding for departments to ensure due diligence in approvals, transparency in reporting, and accountability with respect to its use. In addition, we will streamline the review and approval of policies and programs while ensuring that appropriate controls and respect for parliamentary authority are in place. For example, we will use simplified or omnibus Treasury Board submissions for straightforward program extensions or top-ups. Existing programs will be dealt with in an omnibus way, because these have received prior approval from Treasury Board.

In addition, we have better aligned the timing of the budget and estimates. Thanks to new measures put in place by the Treasury Board Secretariat, the public service is better equipped to handle this process than in previous years. For example, over the past three years, financial management standards across government have been improved. Departments now have independent audit committees that include members from outside government, and departments now have qualified chief financial officers.

Departments have also improved the management of their operations. Under the management accountability framework assessments, large departments and agencies, representing over 90% of government spending, have improved in the area of financial management and control. Recent results show that financial management indicators rated acceptable or strong have risen to 90% from 59%.

We have also increased departmental oversight with a committee of deputy ministers, who will be tracking progress and overseeing the implementation of these measures. The Auditor General will also be auditing spending. For the second year now, the government plans to use early spring supplementary estimates as a vehicle for budget measures.

We all appreciate that we have a big job ahead of us. We will be balancing appropriate due diligence and transparency while rapidly delivering funds to Canadians, but we're up to the task, and we intend to help Canadians through these difficult times.

I'd like to now take a few minutes to talk about some of the ongoing priorities for us at Treasury Board. The first is to make government more effective. What do I mean by this? Our focus will be to continue to reduce the web of rules that stymie innovation and creativity in the public service and lessen our ability to deliver results. This initiative lines up with the recent recommendations of the third report of the Prime Minister's advisory committee on the public service, and it is part of our ongoing commitment to the public service renewal action plan.

Our second overall priority is to ensure that program spending is focused on results, provides value for taxpayers' money, and is aligned with the government's priorities and responsibilities. In this area the expenditure management system that our government put in place in 2007 will continue to serve us well in controlling the growth of government spending while producing results that provide value for money for Canadians. An important part of the system is the strategic review process. Through this exercise, every department and agency is required to assess all their direct program spending and performance on a four-year cycle to ensure they are achieving their intended results, are efficiently managed, and are responding to the priorities of Canadians.

Finally, our third overall priority is to create a dynamic public service that is well equipped to address the challenges of today and tomorrow. That means making changes to the organizational structure of government to ensure that we are as efficient and responsive as possible. One such organizational change was the recent restructuring within my portfolio. On March 2 of this year, the Canada Public Service Agency was combined with two sectors in the Treasury Board Secretaria that are responsible for central human resource management functions, to create the new Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer. This change focuses and streamlines the organizational structure for human resource management. With this new structure and other changes resulting from the review of human resources and governance, deputy ministers will be better supported to manage the people in their own departments and agencies. This restructuring was a result of our horizontal review of central human resource functions, and it responds to the recommendations made by the Prime Minister's advisory committee on the public service in its February 2008 report.

Mr. Chairman, as I mentioned, our government is pressing ahead to help Canadian families, communities, and businesses weather the current economic storm. To stand still is no solution at all, and that's why we're putting in place the measures I spoke about today. As the management board for the Government of Canada, our job is to support the government in its efforts to get money flowing to Canadians by ensuring that it is done right. We are determined to deliver on this commitment. The main estimates reflect this central goal and our commitment to providing this leadership to Canadians.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Derek Lee]

Thank you very much, Minister Toews.

I'll now look to the official opposition for the first round. Mr. McTeague.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for being here and providing us with your opening remarks.

I think you'll agree with us that extraordinary times also require that you, as the minister responsible for the Treasury Board, implement and continue to observe extraordinary accountability. Based on that, do you have before you right now at this time a list of the programs and departmental expenditures that are contained in vote 35 that you could give to this committee?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Vote 35 is a central vote to be approved by Parliament that will enable Treasury Board to allocate the funds in support of items identified in the budget. The actual programs that are going to be receiving money through vote 35 are those listed in the economic action plan. We don't have a list of the actual projects that will be fulfilled on this particular initiative.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

There begins the problem, Minister. I think you can appreciate this. If you were sitting in my position, you would want to ask these simple questions. You've done it many times.

You're asking for $3 billion. In 21 days, you're going to begin a $33-million-a-day expenditure. Given the comments that your colleague Mr. Baird made last week, with respect to three areas and three programs that will receive funds, and being the minister responsible for the Treasury Board, surely by now you have an idea of what that $3 billion is going to be spent on. Given that you do know that--

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Yes, we do.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

--and you must know that, what are they?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

They're set out in the economic action plan.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

No, those are general. You have not established enabling legislation for this. So do you have a specific list?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Well, let's take a look at how the process works. This process is often done in partnership with our provincial and municipal partners. We don't make these projects simply to get money out of the door. We work together with the provinces--

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

I appreciate that.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

--and the municipalities in order to determine whether there are incremental projects, projects that have not yet received any funding, which they are willing to cost-share with the federal government.

Those projects in fact will be reported out. They'll be reported through supplementary estimates and through quarterly reports to Parliament, as agreed to with the official opposition.

I might point out that what we are doing with vote 35 is no different from what we do with any vote of money. It is exactly the same thing. The same controls and responsibilities with respect to the spending of that money will take place. All we're saying is that we want the approval April 1 instead of June 30. That's the only difference.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

If I could, Mr. Minister, you have before you a request to spend money in exactly three weeks, at which point.... At the end of June, you'll tell us exactly what it is.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Right.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

We go through an estimates process in which the line item of every expenditure makes for accountability, not only of this Parliament to you, but of you to this Parliament. By not providing this list, are you not acutely aware of the fact that you are setting a very dangerous precedent in requesting of this Parliament that we give consent to something that you are not prepared to disclose, and that is not...? I would challenge your comments.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Well, hold it--

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

We are dealing with a process that must be transparent. You're saying that it's in the estimates somewhere, so go find it. There's nothing here to attach your $3 billion to. I appreciate the fact that you're concerned about projects that might be ongoing. In three weeks, surely you must have an idea of where you're going to be spending that money.

What are those specifics, Minister? Why are you and your government so reluctant to come forward with that information?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

The money will be allocated over the three-month period. The money will not be allocated in the next three weeks. It will be allocated over that three-month period. That's what the process is. In respect of each of those projects, in the same way that is done by estimates, we will be reporting to Parliament.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Minister, you're just--

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Wait. This is not establishing a precedent in respect of how money is spent or how money is reported back to Parliament. The precedent that it is establishing, if any, is that it is a central vote designed to get the money out April 1 instead of June 30.

If the House said no, sorry, you can't have that central vote on April 1, what would happen is that it would back up to June 30, and all of those projects would be reported on subsequent to June 30. What we are saying is that we're going to be allocating the projects between April 1 and June 30 and reporting back to Parliament in terms of the allocation.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Minister, on that point, you would then have to know what those projects are. You know full well that your department cannot turn on a dime. They cannot, in the next two, three, or four weeks, go through a process, review, and provide assurances that it meets Treasury Board guidelines--

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I don't think you've been listening to what I've said.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

I have been listening, Minister, and what I'm concerned about is that you're not prepared to give us a specific, detailed example of what you're prepared to spend that $3 billion on.

For all of those who are interested in accountability, your party campaigned on it in 2006, so I don't need to remind you of the comments that some of your colleagues and perhaps you campaigned on in the last election in regard to the idea of transparency and accountability being paramount.

Minister, what you're doing today flies in violation of that, so I'm asking you once again, because I think you're going to hear it from members certainly on this side of the table: what projects are you now prepared to fund? And will you give to this Parliament, and will you give to this committee, a concrete list of where that $3 billion is going? Is it simply going to drop from a helicopter and people simply have to run to pick it up?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

You haven't listened to a word I've said. I know you have your scripted lines, and that's what you're sticking to, but what I would appreciate--