Evidence of meeting #22 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contract.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John McBain  Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Frank Brunetta  Assistant Deputy Minister, Departmental Oversight Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Charles Rate  President, SNC Lavalin Operations and Maintenance (O & M)
Martin Lefebvre  General Manager, Public Works and Government Services Canada, SNC Lavalin Operations and Maintenance (O & M)
Justin Sharp  Senior Vice-President, Facility Management, SNC Lavalin Operations and Maintenance (O & M)
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

The clock shows 3:30.

We are continuing our study on the federal buildings maintenance contracts.

We have with us, from the Department of Public Works and Government Services, Mr. John McBain, assistant deputy minister, real property branch; Mr. Frank Brunetta, assistant deputy minister, departmental oversight branch; and Mr. Rick DeBenetti, director general, corporate services.

We will have you with us from 3:30 until 4:15, and after that we'll be listening to the people from SNC Lavalin.

I understand you have opening remarks, Mr. McBain.

You have five to seven minutes, and the floor is yours. Thank you.

3:30 p.m.

John McBain Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Thank you very much.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before the committee today.

Through its Real Property Branch, Public Works and Government Services Canada manages a diverse portfolio of real estate on behalf of the Government of Canada, providing accommodation for about 255,000 federal public servants in more than 1,800 locations across Canada.

In this capacity, PWGSC is the custodian of 345 buildings located in every province and territory. Our primary function as custodian is to ensure healthy, safe occupancy and use of these buildings. In addition to that function, the department pursues its responsibility as a steward of the portfolio of owned buildings and the efficient and effective use of taxpayer resources with equal dedication and energy.

Prior to 1998, the department fulfilled a large portion of our custodian functions through in-house staff. In 1997, the department started an initiative to bring innovation, efficiency, and savings to our portfolio management. We explored and developed an approach to outsource functions that had been fulfilled internally, seeking to leverage private sector and provincial capacities.

The initial outsourcing, which covered the period from May 1998 to March 2005, was awarded to Brookfield LePage Johnson Controls following a competitive process. Eleven contracts were put in place across the country and two agreements were put in place with the British Columbia Buildings Corporation and Saskatchewan Property Management Corporation. The initiative covered 300 PWGSC-owed buildings.

Through that undertaking, PWGSC was able to reduce an average annual requirement of 70,000 contracts between the department and suppliers for its property and facility management function down to 13. The contracts were put in place to fulfill three functions: first, property management; second, project management; and third, tenant services.

In a conventional contracting scenario, our specifications are very prescriptive. This outsourcing arrangement, however, was and remains performance based. We do not spell out how the work is to be done, but instead specify the outcomes to be achieved. This allows the service provider to strive for maximum leverage, value-added input, and innovation.

When the approach was initiated, the savings objective target was set at 10% of the cost base for in-house delivery. The contracts were structured with this forced economy target, and savings achieved were in the order of $20 million annually.

In 2005, when the initiative was competed for again, the previous 13 contracts were consolidated to eight and covered 319 buildings or 80% of our inventory. The eight contracts were competed for and awarded separately. A company that now calls itself SNC-Lavalin O&M won all eight contracts. SNC-Lavalin ProFac, as it was then called, demonstrated the best overall value for four evaluation criteria of approach, financial, experience, and presentation.

A fairness monitor was used for the procurement, and his report concluded that the contracting process was equitable and transparent.

The contracts were awarded for an initial period of four years, with three additional two-year options. To date, two of these options have been exercised, extending the contract to March 31, 2013.

It is estimated that during the first three years of the SNC-Lavalin O&M contracts, the departments saved an additional $86.7 million above the savings from the original contracts.

This outsourcing arrangement also helped make it possible for the government to act very swiftly on its economic action plan funding earmarked for PWGSC's crown-owned buildings.

As the committee knows, we received $323 million over two years to make needed repairs to our buildings. Through the contract, 62% of this funding has gone to SNC-Lavalin O&M, and the vast majority of that has been contracted with local firms.

In maintaining properties on behalf of PWGSC, SNC-Lavalin O&M provides work for 4,000 small and medium-sized enterprises annually, most of them based in the communities they serve.

The contracts with SNC-Lavalin O&M are subject to a range of controls as part of the department's ongoing due diligence to ensure value for money.

An internal review of the SNC revenue, expenditure, and transaction controls was initiated last December as part of the department's annual audit cycle. The results of this work are expected in November of this year.

As with all our internal audits, recommendations and a corresponding plan of action will be presented to the department's audit and evaluation committee and ultimately posted on the web.

It is important to note that evaluations of this initiative were carried out in 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007. Internal control measures over the approval of monthly payments are in place, as well as quarterly inspections of a sampling of projects for each contract, and operational performance measurement and reporting. We also conduct biennial client satisfaction surveys; the most recent one, in 2008-09, conducted by Statistics Canada, indicated that, nationally, 89% of tenants were either very or somewhat satisfied with their building.

In March 2010, the media reported on SNC-Lavalin O&M invoices for tenant service work carried out at Place du Portage in Gatineau. In response to these reports, the Minister of Public Works and Government Services requested that the department carry out an immediate review of the invoices to assess whether the expenditures were reasonable and supportable, and to determine whether there was any evidence of systemic problems with the contracts.

A third-party auditor is conducting audit procedures of expenditure transactions identified in the media articles, plus a sample of transactions made by SNC Lavalin O&M on work for PWGSC as a tenant, for PWGSC as a custodian, and for other government departments.

PricewaterhouseCoopers started this work on April 27, 2010. This examination is being carried out on a priority basis under the direction of the department's oversight branch and its ADM, Frank Brunetta. It is expected that in July the report will be tabled for review by the department's audit and evaluation committee and its three external members, Mr. Erik Peters, Mr. Norman Inkster, and Mr. Jean-Pierre Soublière. Subsequent to the committee's review, the report will be posted on the web. We will be pleased to provide a copy to this committee.

In addition, measures will be taken to improve records management. There will be further examination of any requirement for overtime work, and greater scrutiny and control will be placed on the requests for work.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before the committee today. We will be pleased to respond to your questions.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Thank you.

We'll go to the first round of questions. Ms. Martha Hall Findlay will begin.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to thank all the witnesses for being here today.

Thank you very much for being here.

I have a couple of questions, but first I want to thank you for the detail in your presentation in terms of the background to the contract to the contracts. It actually raises a couple of other questions about how those end up being awarded.

With regard to the famous disclosure about the maintenance being done, it came as a bit of a surprise to hear that the immediate reaction by the minister was to have an external auditor, as you mention at the end of your report. I personally was a bit surprised at that, because if there were some issues with the contract, my reaction would have been to have the people at Public Works look at them, as opposed to an immediate reaction to bring in somebody external and to spend more money on an additional audit.

It may be putting you on the spot, but can somebody explain to me why there isn't enough expertise or management within PWGSC, especially given your description? It sounds as though there is an awful lot of overview. Why would this not first go internally to have somebody make sure that the contract is being handled properly and in accordance with the contractual guidelines? Why would we all of a sudden need an external audit? Also, can you tell me what the external audit is going to cost?

3:40 p.m.

Frank Brunetta Assistant Deputy Minister, Departmental Oversight Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Sure, I can address that.

In terms of why an external audit was requested, I can't begin to speculate on why our minister would want to have an external audit. From my perspective, it doesn't hurt to have someone from the outside, an impartial third party, take a look at the work we're doing internally to give us some assurance that things are being done appropriately.

That said, we had initiated a review of this area in December of last year, as John mentioned. The work that's being done by PricewaterhouseCoopers will only supplement what we're doing, so I don't think it's a waste of resources or money poorly spent. It will inform the work that we're doing in any case.

In terms of the work itself that PricewaterhouseCoopers is conducting, they are doing a two-phased approach. The first is to conduct specific audit procedures on the transactions that were brought to light as a result of the media report and to give us an assessment of whether those expenditures are reasonable and supportable. We have--

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

With all respect, isn't that what you are supposed to be doing? I don't mean you personally, but Public Works. We have an Auditor General's office. I actually do question why we would go and add... Maybe you can't answer, and maybe I should be asking why internal procedures are not enough in terms of overall management of a contract; if the contract and the operations have been following the requirements in the contract, is it not possible for Public Works to tell us this? Also, before we run out of time, I really would like to find out the cost of the audit with somebody else.

Our responsibility is to Canadian taxpayers. A lot of our questions will be around whether this contract is in fact the most cost-effective way of doing this. From your description it sounds as though it is, but it's our job to make sure. We want to make sure taxpayer money is spent effectively, but also transparently, and not wasted. I haven't heard that an external audit is actually adding anything, and I really would love to have some idea of what the cost is.

3:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

John McBain

I can't speak to the cost. But I would add that when the media articles came out—I remember there wasn't very much time between that and when the minister spoke in the House—on the surface, they were fairly inflammatory.

We are very concerned about ensuring that there is confidence in this contract. It is a very, very large contract. It touches all parts of the country. We want to ensure we have both the private sector's confidence and the citizens' confidence in our execution.

We have a very strong oversight and a managing office, which looks at this contract on a national basis. As Frank said, this audit that the minister asked for would seem to supplant and be additional to the work that we...to give a lot of detail to the audit that started in December.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

If you do have significant oversight in the department, and my impression is that you do—you have people who manage these contracts very well—I am concerned there was a knee-jerk reaction to spend more money for purely political reasons.

Maybe I will ask specifically, if you don't have the answer on the cost: can you confirm you will provide that to the committee?

3:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Departmental Oversight Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Frank Brunetta

The contract that was let to PricewaterhouseCoopers was $210,000 for the two phases of the audit work they are doing.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

Once it is all done, that is the complete cost.

3:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Departmental Oversight Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Frank Brunetta

That's right. Unless there are unseen costs--

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

That's almost a quarter of a million dollars in addition because of a knee-jerk reaction to a press release.

I'm sorry, but I would love it if Public Works and Government Services could actually provide the results of your review to the committee, to make sure this contract is following its guidelines, and if I could get a commitment from you to do that in some detail. Is that possible?

3:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Departmental Oversight Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Frank Brunetta

Yes. Our work is scheduled to be completed and tabled to the audit committee in November, and that report can be made available to the committee.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

I have a couple of other questions relating to the contract that are somewhat different. One of them has to do with whether any amendments were made to the contract when the contract was extended.

The initial extension would have been in 2009. Is that right?

3:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

John McBain

Actually, there was an option that had extended it, which had been exercised before then. In 2009, there was an amendment to the contract in the department's submission for its authorities under the economic action plan. We recognized we would be putting more funding for projects through than had been originally planned, so the total maximum ceiling of the contract, if all options are extended, was increased by $500 million.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

We were able to see some portions of the contract, significantly censored. We don't know if it was the amended one or not.

Would it be possible to get a copy of the contract as amended for the members of the committee? We're going to run out of time, and obviously for something of this scale we will need a bit more information to be able to do our job properly.

Can I get an answer, and a commitment?

3:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

John McBain

Certainly.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

The timeframe for when we can--

3:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

John McBain

Certainly it could be within a couple of weeks. I don't see any problem with that.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

The House will be rising in a couple of weeks, so if we could get it within a week, that would be--

3:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

John McBain

Before the House rises. Yes.

The amendment, if I may note, is a very simple one. It is simply the maximum dollar value of the contract.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Thank you.

We'll now go to Monsieur Nadeau.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, gentlemen. You heard about this in the news; it had quite an impact on those in the region. It even became a topic for question period when Gilles Duceppe mentioned that light bulbs had been installed in federal government buildings to the tune of $5,000. Another member, Marcel Proulx, asked why the government had spent $36,000 in a year on extra cleaning costs for a minister's office. Thomas Mulcair argued that paying $2,000 for leafy plants and $1,000 for a doorbell in those buildings—that is getting very expensive—was ridiculous. The Prime Minister, the Right Hon. Stephen Harper, himself, said that the costs did not appear to be at all supportable. Every party, everyone, was in agreement, more or less saying the same thing.

As for myself, on September 2, 2009, I asked Mr. Paradis, Minister of Public Works and Government Services at the time—and I sent a letter to Ms. Ambrose, his replacement, on March 15, 2010—about the awarding of maintenance contracts for federal buildings. The committee heard from Mr. Beaulieu on April 26. You may have seen the documents.

One of the things in all this that remains very unclear, to say the least, very obscure, to say the most, is that the bidding process is not open to the public, but done by invitation, so that small and medium-sized businesses have a chance to become subcontractors for Public Works and Government Services Canada. Some bidding processes are open to the public, and others are done by invitation. That seems to be the problem. At least it is in the eyes of the contractors I have met with. Let us discuss that issue first, the bidding process.

3:50 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

John McBain

If I can answer your question with respect to the contracting process, under the contract with SNC-Lavalin O&M, the statement of work is very clear in the contract in terms of it specifying how our service provider must engage the private sector. There are four separate tiers where different processes are used. From $0 to $5,000 the contractor is allowed to go directly to a firm. This is typically small work, and we want to see efficiencies in terms of how that is administered. From $5,000 to $25,000, a sourced list of three firms that are pre-qualified with SNC-Lavalin is used. From $25,000 to $200,000, a sourced list of five firms is selected, and they use those—