Government Operations Committee on Oct. 27th, 2011

[Denis Blanchette, NDP, Louis-Hébert, QC]

I have one minute left. That is just enough.

I have a question about something else. One of the key things in any organization is clearly its age pyramid. Actually, for staff renewal purposes, an organization must ensure that it has enough employees of every generation, so that expertise can be transferred from one generation to another.

Is the public service's age pyramid adequate in terms of that, or are we beginning to see holes in certain areas?

[Maria Barrados]

For the first time, we are seeing a decrease in the proportion of people under the age of 35. Actually, that is one of my worries. In the past, we have noticed that Canada's public service was aging. Employees are currently retiring. When a reduction in that young population becomes apparent, it is a sign that we need to be careful.

[Denis Blanchette, NDP, Louis-Hébert, QC]

In that case....

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Thank you, Denis. That's well over time now.

Ron Cannan, for five minutes, please.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner Barrados. We appreciate your seven years of service, and maybe we need to clarify the definition of temporary in regard to your extension, because income tax was temporary as well.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Ron Cannon]

We know it's hard to find good people like you, so we thank you for your years of service to our country.

I appreciate your report. Just reading through it, I noticed significant progress has been made but there's also more to be done, which is often the case. In your seven years of service, how many different organizations have you audited? There are 82 altogether, you said.

[Maria Barrados]

Yes, we have done a number. We have 82. We're in a cycle. Elizabeth is doing the calculation for me.

We are trying to do a seven year cycle—five to seven years—to make sure we visit every organization in that period of time. We're in the third year.

Elizabeth?

[Elizabeth Murphy-Walsh, Vice-President, Audit and Data Services Branch, Public Service Commission of Canada]

It is 23.

[Maria Barrados]

Elizabeth tells me we have done 23.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Is it fair to say it's getting better as you go through each year?

[Maria Barrados]

Yes, it is. But I have to say as well that if we think you are an organizations that has some issues and we think there is higher risk, we will put you to the front of the line. So you would expect the earlier ones to actually have had more difficulty.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

I appreciate the fact that we're working with the most qualified and are talking about merit, not just necessarily seniority.

One issue that concerns me is the decline in external appointment rates for persons with disabilities. What have you recommended to address that issue?

[Maria Barrados]

One of the things we tend to forget when we are looking at the public service—and I'm always looking for improvements—is how well regarded we are abroad. We have a very fine public service and can be very proud of it.

This is the second year I have seen and remarked on this. We have four employment equity groups and we've done quite well with three, but the fourth—persons with disability—we haven't.

I think we have to take lessons from how we've done things with the other groups, and that means we have to start a lot of discussions about this. My staff has done a literature review and looked at the experience of others. We do have to make a more concerted effort to reach out to them through job fairs and other special efforts, because not only are we not hiring them but they're also not applying in the proportions that we would like to see.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

I used to be on the HUMA committee and Minister Finley's ministry has dedicated additional resources specifically for accessibility and helping persons with disability. I applaud that initiative.

When you mentioned that our public service is highly regarded externally, you reminded me of a speech that I read not too long ago that Minister Flaherty gave to the Ivey School of Business at the University of Western Ontario. He said that public service was good for you. It brought him back to when he was in university and a speech that Robert Kennedy had given Princeton, which talked about the importance of giving back to your country and the patriotic perspective, explaining that public service was good for you and would give your lives a greater impact on others in your country.

You referred to job fairs. Are we reaching out and getting some of those energetic, educated, and youthful new hires from the universities and colleges across Canada?

[Maria Barrados]

Yes, we are. We run FSWEP, the federal student work experience program. We brought in 8,000 students. We also have a co-op program that we run, through which government brings in people. We have post-secondary recruitment, and even though that number is down—a year before we had 1,600—we still hired 1,200. Now the numbers are lower, but I am strongly encouraging government, regardless of the kinds of pressures on the budget they may face, to continue with their plans to allow for some inflows of these young people. We need them for our continuity, we need them for their energy, and we need them for the kind of expertise they have. They know about technologies that I can't begin to understand. Imagine computing with clouds. I think we need that kind of expertise.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you very much. I agree.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Thank you, Madam Barrados.

Ron, that concludes your time.

Alexandre Boulerice.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Despite Mr. Cannan's reassuring remarks, I want to share some concerns.

Our friends from across the table generally have little regard for public services and the civil service. They have even announced $11 billion in cuts to public services over the next three years. That will result in a significant and unfortunate loss of jobs.

I want to point out that it's unrealistic to believe that reducing the size of government will help Canadian taxpayers save money. Just one example is that, over the last five years, the payroll of Human Resources and Skills Development Canada has decreased by 4%. Meanwhile, the number of contracts awarded to subcontractors has skyrocketed by 242%. Money paid to subcontractors has gone from $35 million to $120 million. Therefore, we have to look at all the expenses and not just the number of jobs cut or the reduction in payroll. More than just service quality would be compromised.

Do you feel that the increased use of subcontracting services usually involves a risk in terms of transparency in the federal public service?

[Maria Barrados]

I think that the most important thing is that all managers and departments to carefully plan their workforce, regardless of whether the employees are permanent, temporary or contract. All of those types of employment can be justified, but there needs to be planning. I would not like for the use of contracts or temporary services to become a way to recruit people. A proper and suitable process should be used.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much. Your answer is very clear and specific. I think that we share that concern. Does the internal planning of expertise renewal in the federal public service seem to be improvised? If so and if there is also little respect for merit principles that apply to promotions and staffing within the federal public service, do you think that we are opening the door to favouritism, arbitrariness or even nepotism in those areas?

[Maria Barrados]

We have noted that, when important legislative changes take place, there is little planning involved. We recently assessed human resource planning and have once again noted an improvement. In that report, I indicated to the departments that, during a period of budgetary cuts, it's even more important to do that planning. The recruitment will have to be done in a very strategic way. In addition, some flexibility in terms of staff will be required. In fact, the public service must follow the minister's guidelines. That is its role. However, that must be done in a fair way and in accordance with the requirements of the legislation.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

You still have one and a half minutes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

The Commissioner of Official Languages noted a number of shortcomings when it comes to services provided by the federal public service in both official languages to Canadians who ask various departments questions or contact them. Those shortcomings are not only in terms of Canadians being able to speak to someone in the official language of their choice, but also in terms of the answers received by email and the e-mail response time.

Do you think there is a guideline from the government, especially when it comes to staffing, to correct the problems raised by the Commissioner of Official Languages? Is there such a concern? Does the government want to resolve those issues?