Evidence of meeting #31 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was review.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michelle Doucet  Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office
Marc Bélisle  Executive Director, Finance and Corporate Planning Division, Privy Council Office
Joe Wild  Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Machinery of Government, Privy Council Office

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Welcome. We'll get started as we wait for the chair to arrive.

I welcome you to meeting number 31 of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates. In today's orders of the day, we're discussing supplementary estimates (C) for the year 2011-12, vote 1c under the Privy Council, referred to this committee last Tuesday, February 28.

Our witnesses today are: Ms. Michelle Doucet, assistant deputy minister of corporate services; Marc Bélisle, executive director, finance and corporate planning division; and Joe Wild, assistant secretary to the cabinet, machinery of government.

Michelle, I think you have an opening statement. The floor is yours.

3:45 p.m.

Michelle Doucet Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon to you all. I am pleased to meet with the members of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

I was recently appointed as the new assistant deputy minister for the corporate services branch for the Privy Council Office, as of January 23, 2012. Today, as the chair indicated, I am accompanied by Mr. Joe Wild, the assistant secretary to the cabinet for the machinery of government. You may recall that Monsieur Marc Bélisle, who is here with me, appeared before you in November 2011 with regard to the 2011-12 supplementary estimates (B) for the Privy Council Office. He is the PCO's deputy chief financial officer and is here with me today in that capacity.

My introductory comments pertain to the 2011-12 supplementary estimates (C) for PCO. Without further delay, I will speak to the distinct items included in these estimates for PCO.

PCO is requesting a net amount of $883,000, which is composed of two specific items. PCO is also requesting an amendment in its vote wording.

The first item, in the amount of $1,383,000, is for continuing the activities of the Commission of Inquiry into the Decline of Sockeye Salmon in the Fraser River. The commission was established by an order in council dated November 5, 2009, under part I of the Inquiries Act, on the recommendation of the Prime Minister.

The Honourable Bruce Cohen was appointed as commissioner. The mandate of the commissioner is to identify the reasons for the decline and the long-term prospects for Fraser River sockeye salmon stocks, and to determine whether or not changes need to be made to fisheries management policies, practices, and procedures.

The commissioner's original terms of reference indicated that a final report would be submitted to the Governor in Council by May 1, 2011. An extension was granted to the commissioner, up to June 30, 2012, due to the unforeseen complexity of the issues the commission has been mandated to investigate, along with the sheer volume of documents requiring review, interviewing witnesses, and conducting hearings.

Following the extension, additional funding was sought in the 2011-12 supplementary estimates (B). However, the commission's financial needs for 2011-12 have further evolved in response to two matters. The first one occurred in the fall of 2011, when new evidence arose suggesting that a new fish health issue, the infectious salmon anemia virus, has potentially been found in wild sockeye stocks, and the second matter relates to the challenges the commission is facing in preparing its comprehensive report.

The funding requested in these supplementary estimates is to allow the commissioner to undertake a focused and limited investigation of the new fish health issue to ascertain the current state of knowledge about whether the virus is present in British Columbia waters and, if so, what can be done about it. This will result in increased costs for commission counsel, transcript preparation, translation services, and the contribution program.

The funding will also allow the commissioner to produce a final report, which is much longer than originally anticipated due to the scope and complexity of the issues that need to be addressed. This will result in increased costs for writing, drafting, editing, translation, and printing.

The second item is a return of $500,000 to the fiscal framework due to savings identified in the day-to-day operations of the Prime Minister's Office in 2011-2012. The Prime Minister's Office was able to achieve this reduction through continued reorganization of staff and re-examination of spending to find further efficiencies.

In June 2011, the Financial Administration Act was amended to include a new section to allow departments to provide internal support services and receive internal support services from one or more other departments. This new legislation applies to departments that do not have the legislative authority and require the authority to re-spend the revenues collected for internal support services.

Since the PCO provides some internal support services to a few entities in the amount of $75,000 for 2011-12, the PCO needed to amend its vote wording in the 2011-12 supplementary estimates (C) in order to be in accordance with the amended FAA.

The revenues will be recorded under PCO in order to recover all costs incurred for the delivery of these services. As for the expenditures, they will be recorded under the supported entities for their share of costs incurred by PCO to deliver these services. These organizations will need to pay these costs within their existing reference levels.

In closing I would like to thank you for giving me and my colleagues this time to inform you of the ongoing initiatives in the 2011-12 supplementary estimates (C). We will be pleased to respond to your questions.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you, Ms. Doucet.

Our first speaker is Denis Blanchette.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses.

I found one thing in your presentation very interesting. You talked about saving $500,000 in your operating costs.

Was this part of the strategic and operating review that had been ordered for the entire government?

3:50 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office

Michelle Doucet

Thank you for your question.

No, it was not part of the strategic review. It was an ongoing effort by the Prime Minister's Office to find economies within their offices.

For instance, they were able to buy flight passes to spend less money on air fare. They were cautious with their hospitality expenses. They took other measures to contain their own staffing in order to reduce their costs. They were able to achieve these in-year efficiencies.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

So this was not part of the strategic and operating review. Has this review been completed? Could you remind me whether you achieved any savings as a result of this strategic review?

3:55 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office

Michelle Doucet

The strategic and operating review has yet to be reported on by the government. I believe you are asking about strategic review, so I'm going to take this opportunity to turn to my colleague, Monsieur Bélisle, to speak about that.

3:55 p.m.

Marc Bélisle Executive Director, Finance and Corporate Planning Division, Privy Council Office

For strategic review, in our supplementary estimates (B) we identified $1.1 million in budget reductions, which we implemented during the year. It's over a three-year period. We should be able to save up to $5.7 million in the Privy Council Office to be able to achieve our strategic review targets.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

Thank you very much.

How much time do I have left?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

You have three minutes, sir.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC

Very well.

Aside from the savings of $1.1 million and $0.5 million, what other options have you looked at in order to comply with the request to reduce the budget?

3:55 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office

Michelle Doucet

Thank you for your question.

We have been engaged in the strategic review exercise that my colleague Marc Bélisle spoke of, which will be implemented through this fiscal year and over the next two fiscal years. We are also, in the conduct of our day-to-day business, trying to exercise all prudence in the stewardship of our resources. So we pay close attention to the amounts we spend.

We look across the Privy Council Office for areas of horizontal efficiencies and where we're able to achieve consolidations. Of course, it's our objective to be able to fulfill the three parts of our mandate—supporting the Prime Minister, the cabinet system, and public service leadership—while we do that.

Marc, do you want to add anything to that?

3:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Finance and Corporate Planning Division, Privy Council Office

Marc Bélisle

I'd just like to say that during our strategic review we found transformation opportunities, which we are putting in place in Privy Council Office, to be more efficient and to transform some of our businesses. That has also been an area we have focused on. We're hoping that some of these things can be done across government, not just in PCO. We've taken that approach.

3:55 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office

Michelle Doucet

Just to give you an example of that, we share some commonalities with other central agencies. The delivery of library services is one of them. We're looking at how we can work together to deliver library services and research services to the staff of those organizations and see if efficiencies are possible.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

That's your time. Thank you very much.

The next questioner, from the Conservatives, is me. I'm taking the slot. I have apologies from the chair. He is actually ill. He's not going to be able to make it. We hope he'll be here on Wednesday.

I'm going to stick to the agenda, which is supplementary (C)s, and not go to what future things may happen. I'm going to ask you questions about the supplementary estimates from this year and about the planning and priorities document you put out.

Ms. Doucet, I know that you're relatively new, so if you're not able to answer, the two gentlemen beside you should be able to.

I apologize in advance. You are the first group to deal with this. My question does not deal with just your particular office. It has to do with the general way estimates are presented.

I look at the main estimates. The main estimates have an estimate, in real terms, of $140 million approved. And, you know, you have small numbers. You didn't have supplementary (A)s. You had supplementary (B)s. I see authorities to date of almost $147 million. This is not just for this section. I'm under vote 1c, vote 1 in each section. If I look at all the different sections, what's happening is that supplementary (C)s says that authorities to date are $166 million, up from $140 million in the mains.

Maybe you can explain this to me. How come, if it's in the column for authorities approved, it changes from one document to the next? I don't see any footnotes. I don't see where it's explained how or why that has happened. Why is there a change? If the authorities were approved through the appropriations bills, why would the amounts be different in each book?

That's my first question.

4 p.m.

Executive Director, Finance and Corporate Planning Division, Privy Council Office

Marc Bélisle

Thank you for your question.

Basically, the amount you see, the $167 million in the supplementary (C)s, is the total of all the new appropriations we have received. It includes supplementary estimates (B)—

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Sir, if you look.... I have all three with me. If you look at the main estimates at $140 million, then you look at the addition of supplementary (B)s, it doesn't add up to the same number.

4 p.m.

Executive Director, Finance and Corporate Planning Division, Privy Council Office

Marc Bélisle

We received a small amount for collective agreements—

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

It is a small amount.

4 p.m.

Executive Director, Finance and Corporate Planning Division, Privy Council Office

Marc Bélisle

—and also for separation pay and these types of things. It's about $7 million or $8 million for the Privy Council Office, because of the severance we're paying this year. That has increased our reference levels quite a bit. If I'm not mistaken, I think we had $11.6 million or $11.8 million for supplementary (B)s.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

In the first section of supplementary (B)s, it is $158,384,000, under “Total Estimates to Date”. That's the end column on this page.

In my view, it should match the first column, the authorities approved, in the supplementary (C)s, but it doesn't. That's $158 million and this is $166 million. There is no explanation. I'm not blaming you. It's the way the system works.

4 p.m.

Executive Director, Finance and Corporate Planning Division, Privy Council Office

Marc Bélisle

Yes, agreed.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

My issue is with the system. There should be a trail for me, as a parliamentarian. If this is all the information I'm getting, I should at least get a trail as to why that has increased by that $7 million, or $8 million, or whatever that number happens to be.

You have small numbers compared to other departments.

Ms. Doucet, would you like to comment?

4 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office

Michelle Doucet

I just wanted to thank you for that excellent question. You said in your question, rightly, that perhaps there might be others better placed to answer that. I'm thinking in particular of my colleagues at the Treasury Board Secretariat, who may be able to help you on this matter.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

I will bring it with me.

Now I'm going to the priorities and planning document for this past year, which you may not have been involved with. When I look at the numbers in here and try to compare them to the numbers in there, it can be difficult, because they don't always.... Let's be honest—they don't match up at all.

Here's my question, though. Part of the plan for 2011-12 showed FTEs in—and I'll just pick a section— the section dealing with cabinet, I believe, under “Prime Minister and portfolio ministers' support and advice”, at 527. In the plan for this year, 2012-13, FTEs are at 115. So it's a reduction, and then it stays the same after that.

My assumption is that part of your plan for this year is to reduce the FTEs in this area so that we save a little bit. It doesn't save a lot of money, but it does decrease the number of FTEs. Are we on plan at the end of the year with the reduction in the FTEs from 527?