Government Operations Committee on May 7th, 2012

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I understand that it's only recently that opposition members are being included on some committees. Have opposition members always been on the committee to review the budget and the estimates?

[Shannon Dean]

Opposition members have always been on committees at the assembly.

[Dr. Philip Massolin]

Yes, but the policy field committee consideration dates back to 2008-09 period, and those committees are all-party committees. Prior to that, my understanding is that it was the committee of supply, which of course is a committee of the whole house. Post 2008 you have had all-party policy field committees considering the estimates, in addition to the committee of supply.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Post 2008. Thanks.

I understand that there's also been a practice in the Government of Alberta to use special warrants. Is that still quite a common practice in your budget and estimate process?

[Shannon Dean]

I'm not sure I would say it's a common practice. It does happen during an election year.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Okay.

For planning and priorities, how is that done within your process? In other words,where does a substantive discussion about what the departments are doing fit within the timing of your budget and estimates? Is it all at the same time?

[Shannon Dean]

If there's a need for additional funds, they would come forward through supplementary estimates. Because of the way our process works, typically the main estimates would come forward in February or March, and if there were a need for additional funds to be approved by the assembly, that request would come forward in the fall sitting, in the supplementary estimates.

I'm not sure that I'm getting at your question.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

It's all right. Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Thank you, Ms. Duncan.

Next, for the Conservatives, Mike Wallace.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for joining us. There are a number of questions that have been generated here.

The first one about our struggle with the mains not matching what's in the budget because of timing. You're saying that yours do. Is there an issue with confidentiality, that the departments know what's going to be in the budget because they have to produce the mains prior to the budget being presented? That's part of the argument that is made here, that there are very few people who actually understand what's in the budget until the budget is presented to the House. That's why the mains can't reflect what's in the budget, or half the bureaucracy here in Ottawa wouldn't know what's in the budget. Is that an issue for you?

[Shannon Dean]

I would say no, because the main estimates are tabled at exactly the same time as the budget speech is delivered, so there's not a timing issue.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

For the bureaucrats to know what's in the budget and to put it in the mains, they have to know what's in the budget do they not—before it's even presented?

So it's not an issue for you that on the bureaucratic side a larger number know what's going to be in the budget announcement because they're actually doing the work to put it in the mains?

[Shannon Dean]

I'm not aware of that being an issue here.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

My second question is that I understand your absolute requirement for policy field committee to look at it, in your case for a maximum of three hours—and if they use less time, then it's deemed approved. Is there a deadline by which those committee meetings have to happen so that they can't be dragged on forever and hold up the budget?

You mentioned that it's only the minister there. I don't expect you to give me an answer as to whether you agree or disagree whether it's right or wrong, but are the discussions then mostly political then, because the minister is there, and not discussions with specific questions on the numbers being asked of officials at the bureaucratic level? Does it end up being a bit of a political discussion more than a discussion of the numbers?

[Shannon Dean]

To go back to the timing and the scheduling of these estimates' consideration, there is a formal schedule that is tabled when the budget address is presented. So there's a fixed schedule where ministers are slotted in for each policy field committee, and then there's a schedule—I'm just holding up here the schedule for last spring—for a final voting date. So all of the committee consideration occurs prior to that date.

In terms of the type of discussion at the committee level, I guess my third-party observation would be that it can be quite effective discussion because the group is small. There are only 11 members of the committee and the minister, so they have a good exchange of information, I would say, rather than the discussion taking place in the committee of supply, which would have 87 members.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

We would call it the committee of the whole here, which some departments have to go to. The opposition gets to choose which committees go to committee of the whole. Is that discussion a lot more political when it's in the house in Alberta?

[Shannon Dean]

Some might say so because there are television cameras, but again, that's about all I can say.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Are your policy committee meetings, or whatever you call them, televised?

[Shannon Dean]

The audio is available on the Internet site. At this time, no, they're not televised.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Based on what you've told me, I just want to be absolutely clear. In our rules here, we are able to accept, reject, or lower an estimate. It never happens, or it happens rarely. But in your system there is actually no voting at those policy committee meetings. You hear the answers, you ask questions, and you hear further answers and then it moves to a vote in the house of everybody, is that correct?

[Shannon Dean]

That's correct.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Is there a timeframe? The timeframes that you've set out, say that schedule you just put in front of us there, is that a legislative schedule, or are they just like Standing Orders that can be changed?

[Shannon Dean]

It's a schedule that's worked out between house leaders and tabled in the house at the beginning of the process. The default position would be that the policy field committees consider the estimates according to their mandates, and the executive council would go to the committee of supply. But the house leaders are responsible for tabling a schedule.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Thank you very much, Mike.

For the Liberal Party, John McCallum. You have five minutes, John.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, and thank you both for being with us.

I would like to return to this question of confidentiality, because in Ottawa, I think only a handful of people in the Department of Finance know the contents of the budget; but if we had a system where the estimates came out at the same time, I think there would be a quantum leap in the number of people in the bureaucracy who had advance knowledge of the budget.

Are you saying that's never been an issue in Alberta? Have you had any instances in the past of budget leaks in advance?