Evidence of meeting #74 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was million.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bill Matthews  Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Christine Walker  Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Services, Treasury Board Secretariat
Sally Thornton  Executive Director, Expenditure Strategies and Estimates, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Alex Lakroni  Chief Financial Officer, Finance Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
John McBain  Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Brigitte Fortin  Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Accounting, Banking and Compensation Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Noon

Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Services, Treasury Board Secretariat

Christine Walker

First of all, in our program activity architecture, in fact, the central votes are aligned in a different spot. They are not part of the people management. What you see in the main estimates is this. At the start of the year, vote 15 is zero because it is a flow-through account and at the end of the year it will be zero. I think that's important to note.

Noon

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Okay.

Noon

Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Services, Treasury Board Secretariat

Christine Walker

What would happen if there were any changes in collective agreements is it basically would affect in the Treasury Board, to use that as an example, the individuals who are working for each one of those program activity areas. If we had, in this case for instance, nurses working in the people management area, you would see a slight increase in spending in the people management area for that program activity for the Treasury Board Secretariat. It's very important to note that the central vote, vote 15, is not directly linked to the people management PAA program activity for the Treasury Board Secretariat.

Noon

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Could you go through a little bit more? I know you've brought this up with Mr. Trottier and earlier with Mr. Braid. Could you point out further what these funds are supposed to do? Obviously it's under the Financial Administration Act, so certainly, we're bound to it by law.

Noon

Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Services, Treasury Board Secretariat

Christine Walker

Vote 15 is part of....

Noon

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

It's 15c again, this extra $10 million.

Noon

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Bill Matthews

Yes, $10.6 million.

Noon

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

The $10 million, yes.

Noon

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Bill Matthews

Maybe while Christine looks for something, I would say that this is something you're going to see on a regular basis. Getting compensation adjustments related to vote 15, you will see, going from memory, in most of our supplementary estimates, because as agreements are signed they are signed through the year. They do have various negotiating tables, and departments will need to be resourced for those things. It's quite normal that you will see these in almost every supplementary estimates and it does depend upon the agreement signed.

I'm not sure if you have anything to add, Christine.

Noon

Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Services, Treasury Board Secretariat

Christine Walker

What's important is that what it really refers to in section 83 of the Financial Administration Act is that the terms and conditions of the employment are paid to each one of the departments from vote 15.

Noon

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Bill Matthews

I would add one thing, Mr. Chair, if I could, on reports on plans and priorities, since the member did bring it up and they are coming. I think the committee would be pleased to know that this year when you do see RPPs, if you will recall your recommendation that had asked for a history of spending and then a go-forward of three years in each case, RPPs this year will include that. So you will see that change in the RPPs. I know Mr. Wallace is no longer on this committee, but I'm sure he'll smile when he sees that.

Noon

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

He would be very happy.

You have 20 seconds, Dan.

Noon

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Mr. Chair, I just wanted to thank our witnesses again. I believe they've covered that issue very well.

I appreciate your testimony today, and I'm sure McCallum wants to be efficient with his time.

Noon

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Thank you, Dan.

Yes, John, if you could be tight as—

Noon

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

I'll be very quick.

I've seen a letter from the Parliamentary Budget Officer to the Secretary of the Treasury Board in which he says that his people consult regularly with Treasury Board officials as they're writing their reports, before they release their reports, which seems to contradict what you said about the need for consultation. There seems to be a difference in interpretation of facts. What are we to conclude from that?

12:05 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Bill Matthews

We do have regular discussions with his staff.

The issue is when we get the reports it's not in time to actually comment on them before they're made public. I believe some members of this committee would probably use the Parliamentary Budget Officer's integrated monitoring database. We have found mistakes in that database in the past where they've double-counted votes, but it's after it's been posted. We would prefer a model where we would get the stuff and could have a discussion and offer comments and maybe improve his products before they're made public.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

I thought he said that he already did that.

12:05 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Bill Matthews

We get them waved in front of us a few days beforehand. We're not left with them to analyze. Basically, we see them but with not enough time to actually comment on them and fix them. We're commenting on them after they've become public.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Thank you, John. Thank you, Mr. Matthews.

We'll have to leave it at that. We want to thank the representatives from the Treasury Board Secretariat for helping us with the supplementary estimates (C) and a very useful presentation.

I need to suspend very briefly while we change our witnesses and invite the guests from Public Works.

The meeting is suspended.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

I call the meeting back to order.

We are now about to welcome the representatives from the Department of Public Works and Government Services. Alex Lakroni will be leading the delegation. John McBain, a regular and frequent friend to the committee, and Madame Brigitte Fortin are with him. Welcome to all of you.

We'll probably only have time for one complete round of questioning because I need 10 minutes at the end of the meeting to go in camera and deal with two brief items.

We'll begin right away by asking Mr. Lakroni for opening remarks. The floor is yours, sir.

February 26th, 2013 / 12:05 p.m.

Alex Lakroni Chief Financial Officer, Finance Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Good morning and thank you, Mr. Chair, and members of the committee.

My name is Alex Lakroni and I am the chief financial officer of Public Works and Government Services Canada, PWGSC. I am pleased to join the committee today to speak about the department's 2012-13 supplementary estimates (C).

I am accompanied by my colleagues, John McBain, the assistant deputy minister of real property branch, and Brigitte Fortin, the acting assistant deputy minister of accounting, banking and compensation branch of PWGSC.

Let me start by restating for the committee members that PWGSC is the government's principal common service organization providing government departments and agencies with services in support of their programs. These include: procurement; office accommodation and facilities; architectural and engineering services; construction, maintenance, and repair of Public Works and federal real property; translation and related services; and pay and pension services.

The Minister of Public Works and Government Services serves as the Receiver General for Canada and has authority for the administration of pay services for federal employees. The minister is also responsible for maintaining the Public Accounts of Canada.

PWGSC's vision is to excel in government operations, by delivering high-quality services and programs that meet the needs of federal organizations while ensuring sound stewardship on behalf of Canadians.

PWGSC plays an important role in the daily operations of the Government of Canada. As its principal banker, accountant, central purchasing agent, linguistic authority and real property manager, the department manages a diverse real estate portfolio that accommodates 269,000 federal employees in 1,819 locations across Canada, including the Parliament buildings. It injects more than $14 billion annually into the Canadian economy through government procurement. It prepares the annual Public Accounts of Canada and manages a cash flow of more than $2 trillion a year. It translates more than one million pages of text on behalf of other federal organizations, and provides translation and interpretation services for Parliament and its committees.

In supplementary estimates (A) this year, PWGSC requested $237 million primarily for the rehabilitation of the Parliament Buildings. In supplementary estimates (B) this year, PWGSC did not request any additional funding. At that time the department explained that existing appropriations were sufficient to cover any additional program requirements and deferred its request for funding until the final annual estimates exercise. This deferral is a reflection of the department's emphasis on responsible budget management practices.

The supplementary estimates (C) request $198 million for PWGSC. However, this request was reduced by $50 million as a result of funds available within PWGSC and transfers between departments, bringing down the total net request to $148 million.

The first notable item in these estimates is $85 million for real property. These funds are required to cover non-discretionary costs in utility, rent, and fit-up incurred during renovations of crown-owned and leased office buildings.

Another $33 million is requested for office accommodation for various departments and agencies that have received approval from governments, mainly for renewed priority programs such as those related to aboriginals, agriculture, security, and national defence.

PWGSC is also seeking access to $32.5 million to deliver a series of projects on various engineering assets such as dams, bridges, and crossings. Examples of projects delivered by PWGSC include work on the Esquimalt Graving Dock and the Alaska Highway.

Access to $23.2 million in funding is being sought for modernization of pay services. The funds will be used to complete the project definition phase and to commence the implementation phase of replacing the 40-year-old government pay system.

The last of the notable items is $15.3 million needed to consolidate all pay administration services into one centre of expertise in Miramichi, New Brunswick, ensuring the sustainability of pay administration and contributing to a more effective and efficient public service that offers better value for money for Canadian taxpayers. As announced in budget 2012, these estimates also return funds as part of PWGSC's contribution to the deficit reduction efforts.

Let me now provide an overview of the impact of these estimates on PWGSC's budget. Taking into account these supplementary estimates (C) for 2012-13, PWGSC's total gross budget would become $6.3 billion. As the department receives $3.5 billion in revenues from other government departments, once these revenues are taken into account, PWGSC's net appropriation is reduced to $2.8 billion.

I'll draw your attention next to the department's operating vote, which has two basic components, totalling $3.6 billion: $1 billion is needed to deliver on our core programs, such as central purchasing and banking, public accounts and payroll and pension services, and internal services; and, $2.6 billion is required to pay for rent, fit-up and utilities for government-wide accommodation, Receiver General functions like payments, and translation services to Parliament. PWGSC also has a capital vote of $578 million, primarily to invest in Government of Canada buildings and infrastructure.

I am pleased to report that PWGSC has shown leadership in the area of sound financial management and has instilled a culture of budget management excellence throughout its various programs. The department's forecasting accuracy between December 31 and year-end for the last two years exceeded 99%. PWGSC has also strengthened its oversight role over financial matters, and rigorous practices have yielded economies, such as in travel and hospitality.

I am pleased to say that these economies were realized while providing comprehensive support to our employees as the department reduced the size of its workforce. Overall, 96% of employees affected by the first and second years of strategic review have secured alternative employment or have left the public service. In addition, of the employees affected in April 2012 by the implementation of the deficit reduction action plan, 92% have already been placed or have left the public service.

In June 2012, our department implemented additional adjustments further to changes in business volumes that affected 86 employees. Of those, 90% have already been placed or have left the public service. PWGSC has accomplished this transformation largely through the efforts of our departmental priority placement process.

Finally, Mr. Chair, I want to say that our departmental efforts to support our most important asset—our employees—have been recognized for a second year in a row. PWGSC has once again been chosen as one of the top employers in the National Capital Region for 2013. The National Capital Region's Top Employers is an annual competition to recognize the Ottawa-area employers that lead their industries in offering exceptional places to work. We are proud of this award, and we are committed to maintaining our standing as an employer of choice.

Members of the committee, thank you for your attention. My colleagues and I would be pleased to take your questions.

Thank you.

12:15 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Thank you Mr. Lakroni.

We have about a half an hour, so that should be one full round of questioning, and first, on behalf of the official opposition, is Linda Duncan.

12:15 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, all three of you, for attending on short notice. We're in equal straits: it's short notice for us to figure out what to ask you. We're looking forward to your excellent answers, as usual.

I would like to go right away to vote 1, and specifically the aspect of vote 1 where you're allocating approximately $2.4 million for cost audits, as you call them, primarily for defence spending. I have a number of questions in that vein. It says it's primarily for defence contracting, so I'm wondering if you could explain to us exactly what the breakdown is and what else is going to be audited.

I would also like to ask you, why do another audit on the F-35 process? We had the Auditor General's report, to which the department responded. We had the Parliamentary Budget Officer's report, to which the department is responding. Then we had the independent audit by KPMG for more than $600,000.

I went to your departmental performance report for 2011-12, since we don't have one for this fiscal year that is about to end. At page 33 of that report, you state under “Lessons Learned”:PWGSC will continue to draw on the quality of its internal audits and evaluation reports to support timely decision-making....

I guess the obvious question is this. Why is the department continuing to allocate additional funds for external audits? Why are these not being done internally? What more can be learned, given that we've already had three very thorough reviews of the specific process?

12:20 p.m.

Chief Financial Officer, Finance Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Alex Lakroni

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the question.

The question is multi-faceted, and I will try to cover the three facets you referred to.

There is the audit of procurement, which is being sought here. I'm going to explain what it entails. There is the audit for internal matters, which is the management of PWGSC, and the relationship to the F-35.

This money is being sought to fund capacity internally to ensure that the costs charged by suppliers are reasonable and in compliance with the terms of the contract. It is a capacity we have because, as you know, PWGSC transits or processes about $14 billion of contracts every year. This is not to cover the entire scope of the procurements on behalf of the government, but it is for the procurement primarily for defence, as specified.

This money that we have is about $3 million. The $2.4 million that you see there is primarily for salaries, and the other component is for benefits under the employee benefits plan. This money is funded for five years.

The audits of PWGSC—

12:20 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Can I just ask for clarification there? Are you saying for this additional money that is going to be given to Public Works for these audits, this is simply to pay for internal employees? Are these people not already employed?