Government Operations Committee on May 21st, 2013

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. We're going to convene our meeting of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates. Welcome today to witnesses from the Treasury Board Secretariat.

We will be examining, and revisiting perhaps for some of us, the integrated relocation program, which keeps popping up just about every parliament but is very relevant for us today as we go into the prospect of renewing this contract in 2014.

I do have information for the committee regarding the sub judice rule on the examination of the past contract, which was in fact appealed by the government and is before the courts. I'm prepared to explain to you, if necessary, the rationale for why this committee is within its mandate to visit the issue in anticipation of or in the context of the next contract in 2014, to make sure it's a fair and open competition and that we receive the best value for the taxpayers' dollar invested.

The first item of business I know Linda Duncan wanted me to raise is that we have these witnesses scheduled for the first hour and the second hour is for the committee to study future business. I'm sorry, originally the second hour was to be with the fairness monitor—IT/Net—that oversaw the fairness of the contract. They were unable to attend. We were unable to reach them until the last minute, and sadly, the principals who were involved with that company during the oversight of the contract are no longer employed by the company. So for two reasons we don't have them here before us today, which frees up a second hour.

I'm going to suggest that if there's interest from committee members, we will ask this panel of witnesses to stay for an extra half hour, and we will study future business or planning in the half hour we have remaining. Is that agreeable to committee members?

Dan Albas, please.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Chair, I had planned out quite a bit of my day today for those kinds of things, so I think an hour is satisfactory. We've had these people here. I'd actually like to get into testimony right away so that we can make the best use of that hour.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Linda Duncan.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Presuming they are available, I would have them stay at least an additional half hour. I have 1,001 questions, and an hour is awfully tight for everybody here to have a chance to ask questions.

I am strongly in favour of assigning additional time. We set aside the entire meeting to discuss this. Regrettably, we don't have the fairness monitor people, but we do have the department. I certainly have no shortage of questions available.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

John McCallum.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I agree with that. I don't think it will take us a full hour to do other business, so if the witnesses are available for an extra half hour, I think that would be a good use of our time.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Andrew Saxton.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Chair, thank you. I believe it was planned that these witnesses would be here for one hour today. Is that not correct?

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Originally, yes.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

So it would be changing the agenda. I think people have planned for a full one hour with these witnesses and we should not change the agenda at the last minute.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Point taken.

Mr. McCallum.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Perhaps I could move a motion that the committee extend its invitation to the officials from Public Works and Government Services to 12:30.

I know that's a change in the agenda, but I don't see why that's a crime against humanity.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

The motion is in order. It's a debatable motion. Is there any comment?

Mathieu Ravignat.

[Mathieu Ravignat, NDP, Pontiac, QC]

I think that's a great idea. In any case, the committee business will not take up an hour. So we won't use the full two hours scheduled for our meeting. If we set aside a half an hour for questions on the Integrated Relocation Program, we will use the whole two hours and be more productive. I think that's why we are here, gentlemen.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Next on the list is Ron Cannan.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We have our witnesses here. But I just want to clarify, through you to the clerk, why is the fairness monitor not coming today?

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Perhaps I could ask the clerk to explain some of the efforts he made, but he did try for a week or so to track them down and was unable to get any response. When we finally did track them down, the response was—and it was only Friday, I believe—that the principals involved in the company that was involved in being the fairness monitor had both recently retired. Nobody at the company thought they would have anything that they thought would be of value to share with the committee.

Perhaps, Marc-Olivier, you could expand on the conversation you had with them.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard]

That's pretty much it, Mr. Chair.

I have been trying to get in touch with them since Monday of last week. The situation is a bit strange. Usually, when witnesses don't want to appear, they say so. However, in the case of IT/NET, all I have heard all week is the sound of silence. Finally, as Mr. Chair said, I found out that the people to whom I was sending messages had retired last September.

I also contacted the company's reception desk. It's a bit of a mystery, but my messages have gone unanswered. The current IT/NET employees are aware of the committee's invitation. They are supposed to discuss it at the beginning of this week. I should be able to talk to them today or tomorrow and find out whether they want to appear before the committee, provided that you still want to hear from them.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Mathieu, you have a motion, please.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Mr. Chair, I'm sorry, I still have the floor.

Just to clarify, once we've dealt with this motion, would it be appropriate to have another motion to invite them for Thursday?

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Absolutely.

When we get to the planning of future business, if we have a vacancy and there's still an interest in hearing from them, naturally that would be in order.

Mathieu.

[Mathieu Ravignat, NDP, Pontiac, QC]

It's a little worrying. The fairness monitor is there to track fairness of procurement processes and various other matters. When parliamentary personnel, i.e., a clerk, can't contact the office and get an answer in a seven-day period, it's worrisome, not only for their appearance here in the future but for fairness in general.

We're talking about a lot of public funds. Obviously the Auditor General as well assumes that this person is in place and that this office is functioning. It's troubling. It seems to me that this underscores the importance of having them appear, and doing everything possible to have them appear. I'd like to get some explanation for their seeming inactivity in recent times.

Do we actually have a fairness monitor in place at this point?

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

I don't know, although I've heard second-hand or third-hand that the same company will be the fairness monitor in this next contract, unless it can be demonstrated otherwise.

Linda, were you waiting?

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Yes. I was just going to call the vote.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

We don't have a rule here where you call the question.

If anybody else still wishes to speak to the motion, the motion on the floor is to extend the time we have with our witnesses.

All those in favour?

(Motion negatived)

We'll proceed then with the testimony from the Department of Public Works. I believe I said Treasury Board Secretariat at the opening, and of course that's not the case.

We have officials here from the Department of Public Works and Government Services. I believe the delegation is led by Mr. Pablo Sobrino.

Mr. Sobrino, I know you have opening remarks, and perhaps you could introduce the colleagues you have with you today.