Government Operations Committee on March 10th, 2015

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Again, it's not my place to predict the budget at this committee. I was merely talking more generally about how I have observed that some items in the budget are, in fact, sunsetted, but I would say—observationally—that items that have a limited time or a limited budget frequently get renewed at the time of the budget.

We'll all have to wait to see about Marine Atlantic.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

I think we'll all have to wait.

Sometimes, Minister, I do indeed get my hair on fire, but I don't want you to ever get your pants on fire.

That said, it's important to be clear and to be precise. It's not just you who doesn't know the budget of Marine Atlantic, but the president of Marine Atlantic does not know the budget, and he won't know for quite some time. That creates an interesting management challenge.

How do you actually operate a federal crown corporation for a period of several weeks, if not months, without having a clue how much money you're going to have as an appropriation?

[Bill Matthews]

Thanks for the question.

Generally speaking—I'm not speaking about Marine Atlantic specifically—what's at play is incremental funding. Departments, corporations all have a base amount of funding they count on. The variance you'll see in departments from one year to the next, or in crown corporations, is incremental funding, sunset funding, as the minister mentioned. That's really the delta that's at play.

It's not full stop, because they don't have certainty. Crown corporations will make plans based on the past, and wait to hear on budget day what's at play in terms of new initiatives or incremental funding.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Mr. Matthews, in fairness, and I appreciate everything you've said and all the advice you've given this committee over the past, but you, as the Comptroller General, would be the first to admit that as a president of a crown corporation, if you have no idea what your budget is going to be, you're probably going to hold back on overtime, you're probably going to cut back on expenditures as best you can, until you find out exactly what your budget is going to be.

As the minister pointed out, last year's budget was $127 million. Can you tell this table right here and now, and can you tell the president of Marine Atlantic that he can be assured he's going to get at least $127 million in this coming fiscal year? Or might he be getting less?

[Yaprak Baltacioglu, Secretary of the Treasury Board Secretariat, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Sir, you know very well that we will not be able to say that. There is a funding decision. There is also a Treasury Board consideration.

The minister responsible and I am sure the president of Marine Atlantic will be aware of the discussions and the potential funding levels. What they may share with you versus what they know about how they're going to manage their corporation would potentially be different.

We will look into this in terms of Marine Atlantic, but this is no different from any other organization, because of where the budget is and where the estimates are. We will ensure that the departments and the managers, like crown corporations, can manage their departments.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

It's much appreciated.

I have very limited time. For which years were the last corporate plans approved for Marine Atlantic?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

We'll check on that, Gerry, and get back to you.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Would you feel, though, Minister, that it should be the 2015-16 to 2019-20 plan, or would you be disappointed to hear that we're two years behind and that it's actually the 2012-13 to 2015-16 plan?

[Brian Pagan]

As the minister has said, we're expecting a budget, and as was made clear at the beginning, the budget provides a source of funds not only potentially for Marine Atlantic but for a number of other programs and initiatives. Organizations—

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

But I'm talking about the corporate plan. This is a requirement of Treasury Board. It's not something that is required of the budgetary process. It's a requirement of the fiscal administration act.

[Brian Pagan]

I would have two points for you.

The first is that—

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

You don't have time for any points, actually, Mr. Pagan.

You're well over your time, Gerry, as much as I'd love to let you continue. You'll have to wait until your next round perhaps, because Ms. Wai Young has been waiting patiently and it is her turn for five minutes.

You have the floor, Ms. Young.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, again, Minister, and the panel for being here today.

As some of us are new to the committee, and certainly for my community of Vancouver South, where we have a very high immigrant population, this whole budgetary process is a bit of a mystery, particularly when you're looking at 2014-15 main estimates and 2015-16 main estimates. There are some fairly large discrepancies there.

Can somebody provide some background or information on the program spending and why there are these large discrepancies?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Sure, I'd be happy to.

Certainly, a number of these indicate that the amounts in the 2015 main estimates have increased by almost $4.5 billion, I think, in statutory spending over the previous year. That's just one example. That's due to things that our government has taken very seriously and has already communicated, for example, the almost $2 billion increase in the Canada health transfer, which was listed in budget 2012. There's a $2 billion increase in benefits for the elderly, including old age security, the GIS—guaranteed income supplement—and allowance benefits. That's included in that total.

As I alluded to in my opening remarks, we have the Canada job fund, including the Canada job grant, to make sure that we train Canadians for the jobs that are available to them. There's more money for the Canada First defence strategy, and more money for the Jacques Cartier and Champlain bridges. Unfortunately, in our country there is always some environmental or weather disaster—flooding, fires, and those kinds of things—so about $250 million goes to those kinds of arrangements.

As you can see, that's typical of where you would see discrepancy between one and the other.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

Is $4.5 billion a huge discrepancy? The government has made a statement that we're going to come in with a balanced budget, so how is this being accommodated at the same time?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Most of this is planned. For instance, the provinces know that they are going to get more money for the health transfer. It would come as no surprise that we make sure that actuarially we know how many more elderly we have in our population vis-à-vis the year before or two years before, so that money is planned over a multi-year period by finance officials and it's allocated in the budget. It's not a real surprise, and it does not derogate from our ability to have a fully balanced budget in 2015.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

What you're saying, then, is that the government plans forward for these expenditures. When I sit in the House and listen to the opposition, they're constantly saying that the Canada health transfers are being cut.

Is this true?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Well, no, because they go up every year. They certainly will be going up this year as they went up last year.

As I say, these are planned increases in transfers either to provinces or to individuals, whether it be for veterans or old age security or what have you. That part is planned.

Then there's another part of the budget that is discretionary in the sense that there may be new programs for innovation or for infrastructure that are included in the budget statement, and then included in a budget implementation act in the future. Those will be explained in due course to Parliament and to the public at large.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

Because health and seniors are of primary concern to Canadians, and certainly in Vancouver South, where we have a disproportionate number of seniors, I just want to get clarity from you that there is planned spending and the spending has increased over time.

Is that correct? How much has it increased?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

There was a 6% increase on the Canada health transfer. As I said, there was a $1.9 billion increase for benefits for the elderly.

So yes, I think you can say that to your constituents and it would be accurate.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

And these are hard facts, as opposed to some of the comments that we hear from the opposition that health transfers have declined.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

They are indeed in the estimates, absolutely.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you very much for that.

I also wanted to know what the difference—

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

You'll have to be very brief, Ms. Young. We have about 15 seconds.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

Certainly. Thank you.

Very quickly, what is the difference between statutory and voted expenditures?