Evidence of meeting #42 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was security.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Jean-François Lafleur
Kevin Radford  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations, Shared Services Canada
Alex Lakroni  Chief Financial Officer, Finance and Administration Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Pierre-Marc Mongeau  Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Manon Fillion  Director General, Finance, and Deputy Chief Financial Officer, Shared Services Canada

11:35 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, or it could be afternoon by now—it's been that kind of day. Welcome to the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, our 42nd meeting.

Mr. Ravignat, would you like the floor?

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This meeting has significantly changed. We were supposed to have here the new commissioner, who is nominated for a six-month period. It is fundamental to our democracy that commissioners appear in front of committees when they're nominated. This last minute decision not to appear is a contempt for the importance of our parliamentary institutions.

I also noticed that the Privacy Commissioner has not been allowed to appear in front of the committee on Bill C-51. This is a habit that the Conservatives are getting into, of muzzling commissioners. It is fundamental to ensure, when we make nominations of this importance to Canada and to Canadians, that we have a chance as parliamentarians to question the competencies and the quality of the nominee. I think it's unconscionable, Mr. Chair, that the commissioner is not here today.

What happened? I need to know what happened, first of all. This meeting has been cut in half, and something fundamental to the health of our democracy has been tampered with. I expect some kind of justification. The commissioner just cannot decide, “I'm going to wake up this morning, and Parliament doesn't matter.” He or she, depending on the commissioner, has a responsibility to come here when called upon and to be questioned.

I think this is a serious matter that we need to give full consideration to before we hear from our other invitees today.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Thank you, Mr. Ravignat. I understand your point. We did have a meeting scheduled to hear from the newly nominated integrity commissioner today, and at the last minute he has notified our committee that he will not be attending.

I have a speakers list.

Mr. Byrne, you wanted the floor briefly.

I'm going to ask—when you're done, Mr. Byrne, and perhaps Mr. Warkentin as well—the clerk to explain exactly what he was told by the office of the integrity commissioner as to why he can't attend.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Mr. Chair, with your consideration, I will surrender the floor temporarily to the clerk to hear the explanation. If I could respond to the clerk's summation of this conversation, I think that would be helpful.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

I know the parliamentary secretary is eager to have some explanation as well.

Let's hear from the clerk, and then you can finish your thoughts as to why we are not hearing from the newly nominated integrity commissioner.

First of all, we will hear from the clerk, please.

11:40 a.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Jean-François Lafleur

Thank you.

I had a conversation yesterday with the commissioner's office, and there seems to be some confusion around his appearance concerning what he was appearing under. He was notified that he was to appear as interim commissioner, and on the notice of meeting we always write where he is coming from. It said that it was from the office of the commissioner.

So the confusion could have come from there in the sense that his office was probably thinking that he was asked to appear as a commissioner. But underneath, there was the name of the commissioner, Mr. Friday, and it said “Interim Commissioner”, so it was in that capacity that he was invited to appear.

It seems that at his office there was some confusion about that fact, and what I received as information is that he would probably be nominated later, and there was an absolute willingness from his office to appear later as the commissioner—a permanent commissioner, if you wish.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Just as a point of clarification, then, did his office agree that he would attend today, and was it on that basis that you scheduled his appearance?

11:40 a.m.

The Clerk

Yes.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

And at the last minute he has decided he is not going to appear.

11:40 a.m.

The Clerk

Yes, Mr. Chair.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Mr. Byrne, did you want to finish your thoughts? Then it will be Mr. Warkentin.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Yes. This is getting murkier, Mr. Chair. If I understand it, the requirement under the Governor in Council is for an order in council to be issued for his nomination to be extended as the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner.

Work with me, Mr. Chair, if you can, because I think we need to get this clarified. As I understood it, the nomination of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner was forwarded to this committee because we have an opportunity as a committee to oversee and to make a recommendation about this particular appointment. The referral was required because the commissioner's former appointment had expired and he is being renominated. Is that—?

11:40 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

No. The former commissioner, Mario Dion, is no longer there, and in the interim Mr. Friday was nominated to a six-month term to be the interim integrity commissioner.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

—which still requires an order in council.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Yes.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Therefore, he is acting, so it's fairly clear that—

Has he not yet obtained the order in council? Has the order in council been authorized?

11:40 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

No, he is interim commissioner for six months and he's about three months into that six-month appointment. But still, this committee is allowed to and in fact is obliged to vet that appointment.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

This makes absolutely no sense. That's why I wanted to work this through, so that we're communicating to Canadians that there is a new commissioner who has never been vetted by a parliamentary committee. The commissioner has been invited, we understand, under very specific directions to appear concerning the nomination itself, and the interim commissioner is saying, “No, I don't think so.”

Mr. Chair, with all due respect to those who have made a decision in this matter—and those decision-makers are not in this committee, but outside of this committee—we have had a very serious breach of trust already occur with a former Public Sector Integrity Commissioner. That commissioner was never allowed to appear before this committee. That commissioner was never asked.... The report of the Auditor General was never allowed to be heard by the public accounts committee, which interfaces with the Office of the Auditor General.

Now we have an interim commissioner who holds a very important office—important not only to us as Canadians, but to our parliamentary system and to our system of governing the public sector in a fair and responsible way—and this person has just said he won't appear before us because he's a bit confused.

I am very confused, Mr. Chair. I would like to have the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner come before us so that we can meet him.

11:45 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Are you making it a motion that we summon the integrity commissioner? He has been invited, but I should say that the word is a polite term. He was in fact called before this committee and has decided, in his wisdom, that he doesn't need to attend.

The next step would in fact be for this committee to put forward a motion to compel his attendance at this committee.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As an officer of Parliament, I'll give respect, courtesy and the benefit. We'll expect the interim Public Sector Integrity Commissioner to appear before us at the next meeting. How does that sound?

11:45 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

I think that expresses it quite well.

Mr. Warkentin has been waiting patiently.

March 12th, 2015 / 11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB

Thank you, Mr. Martin. I appreciate that.

It is clear to me, based on what the clerk said, that that there was some confusion about the invitation. We are very confident in the ability of Mr. Friday, and I'm certain that when he does come before this committee we will all be satisfied that he has conducted and will continue—

11:45 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

With all due respect, we all said that about Madam Ouimet as well.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB

Mr. Chair, do I have the floor?

11:45 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

You have the floor.