Evidence of meeting #11 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transformation.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ron Parker  President, Shared Services Canada
Alain Duplantie  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Shared Services Canada
John Glowacki Jr.  Chief Operating Officer, Shared Services Canada

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Welcome to the 11th meeting of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

We have a number of guests from Shared Services Canada with us today. Before I ask them to introduce themselves and make some opening statements, I would like to tell the members of the committee that I would like to take probably no more than five or ten minutes at the end of the committee for some quick committee business based on some information we received today from the minister responsible for Canada Post. With your agreement, we'll dismiss our witnesses about 10 minutes before the end of the meeting to discuss that item.

As I mentioned earlier, we have with us today representatives from Shared Services Canada.

Mr. Parker, it's good to see you again. Sir, will you kindly introduce who you have with you? Then we'll ask you to start your opening comments followed by two hours of intense questioning, I'm sure, by our members.

3:30 p.m.

Ron Parker President, Shared Services Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have on my left side Mr. John Glowacki, the chief operating officer for Shared Services Canada. On my right side is Monsieur Alain Duplantie, the chief financial officer for Shared Services Canada, a recent addition to our department.

With that, Mr. Chair, I would propose to go quickly through the overview.

The objective here is simply to give you an overview of SSC's mandate, of its information technology transformation agenda, of its short-term priorities, and of course to answer your questions.

SSC was created five years ago to improve IT infrastructure service delivery, transform the government of Canada's email, data centres and networks, and generate value by implementing a government-wide approach to managing IT.

SSC was set up over a period of time. It was announced in August 2011, and then there were the acts that established it and several OICs. It involved the transfer of personnel, assets, and contracts from 42 separate departments and unique organizations into one central department.

Something of this order of magnitude is unprecedented in the Government of Canada. When you think about a merger and acquisition, usually you're talking about two firms, and effectively here, we're taking personnel and assets from 42 firms. That gives you a sense of the order of the transformation overall. To carry out our mandate, we work very closely with the Treasury Board Secretariat, Public Services and Procurement Canada, the security agencies, and all the partner departments.

The starting point we had is one of the parts I'd like to underscore. It was very diverse. There were about 1,500 mission-critical systems, applications that cover very important programs for the Government of Canada around benefits, employment insurance, policing, and tax systems. The overall order of magnitude was about $2 billion per year on this suite of services. To give you a sense of scale, at the time SSC was established, the overall spend on IT in the Government of Canada was about $5 billion. So roughly 40% of the overall expenditure was affected by the transfer and creation of SSC.

The balance of that expenditure, which still resides in the departments, is on the applications that are running on the infrastructure and the end-user devices, for example, that are maintained in the departments: laptops, desktops, all those types of devices.

We started with 63 different email systems for 43 departments, and more than 500 data centres varying in size and quality. Over time, we've discovered a wide range of—I wouldn't call data centres—servers and equipment spread across the country as well. There were 50 wide-area networks that are siloed, set up narrowly, which didn't necessarily talk to each other in over 3,500 buildings.

That gives you a general sense there's a lot of duplication and a lot of possibilities for efficiency. I'll get to it in a bit, but with all of these different points of entry into the Government of Canada systems, it also provides a significant security concern.

The starting point was complex, costly, and insecure. It has a long-term unfunded liability. As the Auditor General noted in his report of 2010, there needed to be significant investment. That was one of the factors that led to the establishment of Shared Services Canada.

What's the transformation about? It's about consolidating those data centres. We're looking at going from over 500 to about five data centres, from 63 email systems to one email system, from more than 50 siloed networks to one Government of Canada network, and modernizing the telecom systems. A lot of the telecom facilities we have are nearing end of life. We need to provide for the procurement of a centralized spot to do the procurement of workplace technology devices with a view to improving the overall security of those devices that's permitted by the centralization.

What will Canadians see, and those clients who will provide those services to Canadians? They'll see fewer systems, fewer failures of those systems, improved security, more bandwidth, more storage, and things like improved video conferencing.

How does this all fit with the bigger picture? In a digital world, we'll be more capable of handling the big data, supporting the mission-critical applications, protecting the sensitive information of Canadians, and having more flexibility in terms of the storage and compute capacity for the government. This is becoming a big issue in the science community, for instance, where you have very large datasets that are initially there, but then the scientists use them, crunch them, and don't need them anymore or want to archive them. Do you want to put that in a data centre and hold that for the Government of Canada on an ongoing basis? Probably not, if it's unclassified data.

All of this aligns with overall digital service delivery, efficiency in internal services, and the modern agile public service.

I think that SCC has made significant progress in its transformation. As I said earlier, the data centres are an important aspect.

We created three enterprise data centres for the Government of Canada. We made improvements to the process and significant improvements to the system's security. We established security operations centres. We examine all of the government's purchases and verify where the equipment comes from, to make sure it is safe.

Finally, we have substantially streamlined the telephone system. We awarded contracts to two companies to begin streamlining the networks. The rollout began this week and we have begun installing and implementing the new networks. For this project as well, this is just a start.

In 2016-2017, SCC will reset its plans for transformation. We are currently carefully reviewing all of the hypotheses that underpin the transformation plan. The moment is crucial for that review and study. We are closely examining budgets, the time needed to reach objectives, and the size of the projects, in order to be able to meet the government's needs in the context of an economy based on innovation and the services provided to Canadians.

We're moving to a different type of business model relative to what was established previously, with clear focus on the elements that are necessary for the transformation and the operations of the department to be successful: a new service strategy to reinforce the delivery of quality service to the clients; a financial strategy looking at different pricing strategies; and the long-term sustainability of the IT infrastructure. Project management is key for a department like SSC.

And finally, the people strategy, which is probably the most important of all, given that our employees are the most important asset that we have; the skills and talent that they bring will make the projects happen.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Mr. Parker, if I may interrupt, we normally allocate about 10 minutes for opening statements. We're considerably over that now, and I would be quite frankly doing a disservice to committee members if I didn't allow them adequate time to question you and your officials. I suspect that for most of the questions we'll be able to elicit the information that you have contained in your presentation that you haven't yet got to.

With that, sir, I'm going to cut you off, frankly, and we'll go into the line of questioning.

Madam Ratansi, you have seven minutes, please.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Parker, and thank you to your team for being here.

I was listening to you. You really have a complex mammoth elephant that you're trying to convert into a thoroughbred racehorse. I am very familiar with mergers and acquisitions and strategic planning. You're new to this job; you've taken over something that was created by somebody, and now you have to move with this mammoth elephant.

The Auditor General, despite things you've been saying, has said in his 2015 report that SSC lacks a strategic plan, doesn't have a comprehensive catalogue, and doesn't have a service plan. I'm not blaming anybody there. I know it was done during a previous regime, a previous government, but for us, as parliamentarians it's our job to ensure that moving forward we learn some lessons from this, because legacy systems will continue, as you've talked about sustainability.

Do you now have a strategic plan that shows the road forward?

3:45 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Ron Parker

The strategic plan that the Auditor General was discussing, I believe, was the strategic plan that the Treasury Board Secretariat is responsible for dealing with, the IT strategic plan. Treasury Board Secretariat is drafting that plan, and we are contributing to it, but it provides the basis for the overall direction of where they think the technology should go.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Basically, then, the Treasury Board under the previous government did not have a strategic plan and therefore the operation was a mishmash among the 42 firms you are trying to consolidate.

How many times has this system been reset?

3:45 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Ron Parker

The Shared Services transformation plan was first set in 2013 and then went back to Treasury Board ministers as a report in June 2015.

We are asked to report annually. As part of getting ready for this year's report, we're taking the opportunity to do a complete reset of the plan to look at all of the underlying assumptions, the time, the money, the resources required to accomplish the objectives that have been set for the transformation.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Are you starting from base zero, then?

3:45 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Ron Parker

It's not base zero in terms of the objectives. Projects are launched. We have launched the email transformation, we've launched the renewal of the networks, some of the data centre migrations have begun, and we've established three of probably five data centres. But we need to look at how quickly those can go, what cost they're going to have, and whether we have the complete resource skill sets that are required to finish the job.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

It comes back to my question about a strategic plan, which is in the development stage, and hopefully somebody is taking responsibility. The current government is really very evidence-based, and it is taking the responsibility to create that plan.

With all of these resets, are you going to be able to meet your transformation deadline of 2020?

3:45 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Ron Parker

As part of the exercise, it's a set of trade-offs between budget, scope, and time. Those are the variables we have to look at. Going faster could cost more, or if you reduce the scope, you could go faster potentially. At this point, I don't know for certain where those are going to land.

We're going to be reporting to ministers in the fall. This summer there'll be an independent external review of the plan by external experts whom the Treasury Board Secretariat will contract, to validate whether or not it's a realistic plan and whether we have the capacities to deliver on it.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

If I were to look at the whole SSC structure, what are some of the challenges that you are facing going forward?

There's a strategic plan that was not created, expectations that were brought up here on the assumption that so many systems would be all integrated, that there would be cost savings, etc. What are some of the challenges?

Let's be practical. We want the system to succeed. We really do. We want it to be sustainable. What are some of the challenges that you face?

3:50 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Ron Parker

There are a number of challenges. Funding is one of the challenges, but only one of many challenges.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

In what way?

3:50 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Ron Parker

Because the projects are delayed, for example, the savings that are accruing are smaller than planned. That means that we have to reprioritize across the projects and operations.

The projects are more complex. The systems are more complex, as well, in terms of what was discovered when this set of infrastructure was passed over. The interdependencies across the networks, the data centres, and the security aspects are much greater than was anticipated.

The ability of vendors to deliver what we're looking for on the schedule that we're looking for is proving more difficult than expected.

There are quite a few elements of this exercise, this project, that are quite difficult.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

We will have a second round of questions.

We'll go to Mr. Blaney for seven minutes, please.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to pay tribute to the work done by my colleague Ms. Ratanski, who presented good arguments and described the committee's work well, work that is intended to improve the situation in this area.

I want to welcome you, Mr. Parker, and your eminent colleagues.

Earlier I was quickly reading over the Auditor General's report. Sometimes the Auditor General likes to give good news, but if he wants to find the solution to a problem, sometimes he has to take the bull by the horns. One sentence in his report surprised me. I am paraphrasing, but he said that if Shared Services Canada had been a private company, it would have lost all of its clients. This is worrisome for taxpayers when one thinks of the services provided by the departments.

Just to situate the discussion, I wanted to ask you the question raised in the report. Does Shared Services Canada still have more that 6,000 employees?

3:50 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Ron Parker

We currently have around 5,800 employees, so the figure you quoted has changed slightly. We are looking for people to fill certain positions.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

You have positions to fill.

What percentage of those 5,800 employees are in the national capital region? How many are here, approximately?

3:50 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Ron Parker

There are about 1,400 employees in the regions.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

That means there are over 4,000 or 4,500 employees in the national capital region. So the majority of your staff is here. You still have a budget of $1.4 billion.

3:50 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Ron Parker

Parliament grants us our budget. Another part of it comes from revenue generated by services provided to departments. That adds about $500 or $600 million.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

What is the total, Mr. Parker?

3:50 p.m.

President, Shared Services Canada

Ron Parker

It is about $2.2 billion.

3:50 p.m.

Alain Duplantie Senior Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Shared Services Canada

Yes, it is about $2 billion altogether.