Government Operations Committee on April 24th, 2018

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Mr. McCauley, you have seven minutes, please.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Ladies, thanks for being with us today. You've offered a lot of stuff. You've answered my questions mostly in advance. I wish we'd had you earlier in the study.

Let's talk about set-asides. We've had other people before us talking about set-asides for first nations and others. What we're also hearing is that, even with set-asides, it's difficult to access government business because of the onerous red tape, the difficulties. We heard comments that it's pointless to even bid because they have to put so much into it for a small contract.

Is that something we should tackle first before we look at doing a set-aside? I don't want to call it putting the cart before the horse, but I hate to set us up for failure, so we'd have a set-aside and then still make it impossible for anyone, it doesn't matter who, to dig through the government paperwork unless they're a CA or a masochist.

Is that a bigger problem?

[Annette Verschuren]

It is a big problem. One of the biggest problems for SMEs across the country is the amount of regulation on everything. The complexity of applying for these things is extremely important. As we design anything in our government, I really believe the execution may be more important than the strategy.

So I think you're absolutely right. Elyse can comment on the set-asides, but I think the execution of those set-asides is extraordinarily important. Making it easier for companies and smaller companies, particularly, to access that is critical.

[Elyse Allan]

I would just add that I would hate to delay progress in terms of moving forward on the idea of set-asides because of the red tape, but rather use the execution and the implementation of a set-aside program, perhaps to drive the reduction in the complexity around whatever new program would be introduced, so in fact try to combine them together. Use one, maybe, as a forcing function to drive progress in the other.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I have a great fear that if we do a set-aside of, for the sake of argument, 10 or 15, it will only benefit a certain amount within that set-aside, because it's so difficult to get through the paperwork. We've heard other witnesses, and a lot of the women-led SMEs are one to 10 people, and they don't have the resources. I fear that, if we do a set-aside as a be-all and end-all without fixing our process, we're not going to benefit the greater community and the greater number.

[Annette Verschuren]

Maybe if you had more women involved in making those.... I believe in Elyse: we need to make these investments now. We need to drive our economy and grow our economy. If we wait until we get the system perfect, it's not going to happen. But you could establish—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

We have to fix both at the same time.

[Annette Verschuren]

Yes, exactly, both at the same time, absolutely.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

You spoke about it very well, but I just want to chat a bit more about verifying. We've heard, again from other witnesses from other targeted groups, about whether it's good enough to have, say, female ownership but all men in management versus male ownership. Where is the best balance that delivers the best value for Canadians, the best value for women? Have you heard from other groups about having—and I don't want to use the word “token”—almost like a placeholder in order to get bids?

[Elyse Allan]

Yes, we certainly heard in some of the round tables, particularly from the U.S. women who were participating, that there was some risk, as there often is, in various programs of people gaming or working their way around the system. Based on that and the amount of work we have done—granted, there's probably a lot more that could be done—our sense of this is that we should be focusing on management and control versus purely ownership. That was a recommendation that came from the women who had participated in the States around that. We don't have a lot more data other than this, which is more anecdotal. It certainly came up in a couple of the round tables that it's something we should be wary of and should be looked at before one would write the framework.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

If you have any of those minutes from those meetings you could share with the committee, I think that would be appreciated, just so we can round it out a bit more or flesh out some of our—

[Elyse Allan]

Certainly. We could look at that to see if it's documented in those minutes.

[Annette Verschuren]

Our recommendation of third party certification is key. If we establish the rules correctly and fairly, and then have a third party certify that, I think that could make it easier.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

The last question I have—and you've covered it—is about reaching out to women-led organizations to let them know. This is a problem across all demographics in Canada. When I talk to SMEs, very, very few people know about this huge segment of business available. What is the best way to get that out to SMEs, all SMEs, and in particular women-led SMEs or women-managed SMEs?

My wife has a small business. She's formed her own women-led group to promote within the wine and restaurant industry, but how do you get it out to the regular person who may not be involved in the chamber or who may not be at senior levels?

[Annette Verschuren]

I think it's a really important question. One reason Elyse and I have taken time out of our work is that we really believe in this as a great opportunity for our country.

I think that women networks, business networks, can talk about this. We need to educate our society about this once we have established what the recommendations are. We need to do various different things. Whether it's social media, direct intervention, or talking with all the chambers across the country, if we do have a strong program, I think we could communicate it very effectively.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

It sounds to me like we need to involve the chambers and women networking groups in how we do the advertising, just as we need to involve them in setting up the set-asides and other small businesses as well.

[Annette Verschuren]

Absolutely.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Again, ladies, thank you very much. It's been very informative.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Mr. Blaikie.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much.

I was hoping you might be able to expand a little bit more on the idea of third party certification and on exactly what setting that up looks like.

[Annette Verschuren]

There are third party certifications.

Elyse, what are the names of the two that we know of?

[Elyse Allan]

I can look it up here....

[Annette Verschuren]

Just off the top of my head, they are in the U.S. and they're setting up chapters in Canada.

[Elyse Allan]

Yes: it's WEConnect International and WBE Canada. They are the ones who go through and have the different certifications. It's very helpful.

Something we might want to consider, when we go and look at that certification, is that we try not to create a difference between the U.S. and Canada. The certification process in the States has been working very well and has been in place for a while. Eventually, we could see some integration of the programs across the U.S. and Canada. To the extent that we had similar certification requirements, that would facilitate women-owned businesses in Canada having access to the bigger market in the States. It's something to consider.

[Annette Verschuren]

This was something that Elyse and I really pushed hard on. We would love Canadian and American women-owned companies to trade more aggressively. For women in Canada to access procurement in the United States and vice versa, we need trade, and we need to export our goods. It's one way of scaling up and growing women-owned businesses.