Evidence of meeting #13 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was corporation.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Deepak Chopra  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation
Jacques Côté  Group President, Physical Delivery Network, Canada Post Corporation
Susan Margles  Vice-President, Government Relations and Policy Framework, Canada Post Corporation
Christine Donoghue  Acting President, Public Service Commission
Wilma Vreeswijk  Deputy Minister and President, Canada School of Public Service
Joe Friday  Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Karine Trudel NDP Jonquière, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We have talked about profits and other aspects. To my mind, Canada Post is a public service that must provide services.

We see the figures. Your action plan makes the corporation seem like it is considered a private company, but the service must be public. It is important to make a profit and find new ways of doing things and new services, but first and foremost, we have to preserve the essence of what Canada Post is—a corporation that provides services to Canadians, including seniors and people with reduced mobility.

I am also thinking about our major cities, including Montreal and Quebec City. Have you thought about the possibility of implementing the home delivery service. This is about mail delivery. Mail carriers do still have to get to neighbourhoods every day to deliver parcels and mail to homes three days a week, to provide Canadians with services.

Canada Post may be running a deficit in mail delivery, but it turns a profits in parcel delivery and other services. We have to consider all of that. The very essence of Canada Post is to provide Canadians with services.

4:30 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation

Deepak Chopra

The independent review panel provides an opportunity to look at innovative options. I think it is wonderful to be able to evaluate ideas from your constituents and other parts of the country. It is still important for the corporation—we are barely a break-even organization—to pay for itself. The Canada Post Corporation Act asks Canada Post to be self-sufficient.

The goal is to generate enough profit so that we can reinvest in new services. The member from Brampton East talked about our concept store. That is an investment in helping busy young mothers. Canadians are leading busy lives. Those funds allow us to reinvest in business, new technology, new vehicles, and new ideas. That remains the main objective, to be financially self-sufficient. Profits get reinvested in the business. For other options that may be even more interesting to Canadians, we look forward to working with the independent review panel. We look forward to working with the committee as you look at the final report from the independent review panel. We need a package that will allow us to remain financially self-sufficient and yet serve the changing needs of Canadians. Canadians have changed, and we are committed to making sure that we serve both their past and emerging needs.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you, Mr. Chopra, and my thanks to all committee members.

Because of the tight timelines, I'll keep my thanks to a minimum. We appreciate your being here today.

We are going to adjourn for about two minutes while we get ready for our next set of witnesses.

Thank you all.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Colleagues and witnesses, we're not quite finished with some distribution of statements we have for you. Before us today we have three agencies: the Public Service Commission, the Canada School of Public Service, and the Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada.

Witnesses, given the time constraints we're facing, I would like you to try to keep your comments as succinct as possible. Any comments that you don't have time to get to verbally will be appended to the minutes of this meeting. They will be a part of the official record. I'm going to try to allow as many of our colleagues to ask questions as possible. Please try to keep your comments to a minimum and allow the questions to elicit the information you might have normally given in your opening statements.

We will start with the Public Service Commission.

Madam Donoghue, please identify any other officials you may have with you, and give us a brief opening statement, if you have one.

4:40 p.m.

Christine Donoghue Acting President, Public Service Commission

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm happy to be here with Raman Srivastava, who is our acting VP of audit and data. Raman has the knowledge to be able to answer a lot of the data questions that the committee may have.

Thank you for having us. The commission is really pleased to be here. We were here not too long ago to talk to this committee about the mandate of the commission, so I will not expand on that, but as you know, we're an organization that has been up and running for over 100 years. The purpose of the commission is definitely to ensure the integrity of the staffing system and the non-partisanship of the public service.

We deposited our annual report with Parliament on February 24. You will notice in our annual report that the staffing system is very healthy and doing well.

For 10 years, we have been operating under the new legislation, which is the Public Service Employment Act, which is what changed in 2005. After 10 years of practice under this act, and verification with our audit powers on entity audits of organizations, we are pleased to say that the system in staffing is doing very well and is pretty mature.

On that basis, we have started a modernization of our policies to ensure that we are more nimble in order to allow departments to reflect their operational realities.

On April 1, we launched “New Direction in Staffing”, which is a modernization of 12 pieces of legislation that we've put forward into one piece of legislation, but we've also strengthened the delegation to deputy heads, so that as delegated authorities under the act they have more flexibility to be able to attract and draw the talent they need in order to meet their operational needs. What we do is ensure that merit is met in these processes and that they're done on a non-partisan basis.

This modernization is critical for the commission in order to build the public service of tomorrow. We start building it today. That's the vision we've given ourselves at the commission, in order to be a strong employer and assist departments in ensuring that we have the right talent and the skill sets to meet the needs of government and service in the context of the future and where programs and priorities are taking government.

Deputy heads are now responsible for monitoring their staffing action, which is also allowing them to detect and correct the issues as they arise. We have simplified that delegation instrument, and they're held accountable in that instrument so that they can exercise discretion but also better serve Canadians.

We are committed to working with all stakeholders to support them in implementing these changes.

Since we are here to talk to you about our report on plans and priorities, the commission's priority is to work in close collaboration with deputy heads to promote and safeguard the non-partisan nature of the federal public service. For instance, we will continue to promote public servants' awareness, not only of their responsibilities, but also of their rights with respect to political activities.

A second very important priority for us is to ensure the integrity of the staffing system through clear policy direction and support, as well as ongoing oversight. We have created a team of staffing support advisors who will work closely with organizations to ensure that integrity.

We are also adapting our oversight capacity, with the objective of supporting continuous improvement and in-time corrections across the public service. Audit is but one tool that we use, and working more collaboratively and more directly with departments allows for this in-time correction.

Over the past 10 years we have audited over 90% of every organization in the system. As I said earlier, we saw that the system is in fact mature, so we are now shifting to an audit or a verification system, an oversight system, that will allow us to examine system-wide issues, and to be able to pay attention on the greater focus of system integrity—

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

I do apologize sincerely for the interruption, but it is only because of the time constraints we find ourselves in. All committee members do have hard copies of your opening statement. I would ask perhaps if we could cut it off there and allow members to ask questions, when it is their turn, on the totality of your submission.

We will then go to our next witness, if I may.

Madam Vreeswijk.

4:45 p.m.

Wilma Vreeswijk Deputy Minister and President, Canada School of Public Service

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like first to introduce my colleagues, Jean-François Fleury, vice-president of learning programs; and Elizabeth Tromp, vice-president of corporate services and chief financial officer.

The school was created in 2004 as part of the Treasury Board portfolio, and it is the central learning and training institution for the public service.

The school has been in a major transformation since 2014 to respond to public service needs and deliver a better service at a lower cost. We are revitalizing our curriculum and modernizing how we deliver our learning services to provide public servants with equal access to the learning they need anywhere, any time,

in both official languages. We are moving from primarily classroom-based learning to a broadened learning ecosystem in various formats and through different means.

A new common curriculum supports public servants at every stage of their careers and includes foundational and transformational learning, talent management and leadership development programs, and specialized learning for functional communities. For Canadians, this new model fosters a culture of high performance, innovation, and continuous learning that results in a stronger, more effective, and more efficient public service, achieving better value for money.

To support the new approach, the school has been moving from a blended funding model based on parliamentary appropriations and cost recovery to one that is primarily funded through appropriations.

This new approach is funded from reallocations from client departments based on employee numbers, allowing the school to offer more enterprise-focused, value-added training to the roughly 240,000 public servants who make up the core public service.

This new funding model will come into effect for the first time in 2016-2017.

In the 2016-17 report on plans and priorities, the school reported forecasted spending of $93 million for 2015-16, decreasing to $92 million in 2016-17. Through the transition period of the transformation, spending increased to invest in updates to the school's learning platform. This transformation was entirely self-funded by the Canada School of Public Service drawing on its own reference levels.

Beginning in 2017-2018, the main estimates will reflect steady state funding of approximately $79 million, post-transformation.

In closing, I believe this is a great time for learning in the federal public service. We are already starting to see the positive results of our transition toward the new model. More and more public servants from all regions of the country are using the learning tools.

The school is proud to be leading the new public service-wide approach to learning, already contributing to a more engaged, up-to-date, agile, and responsive public service. This year we will be focusing on strengthening our partnerships both inside and outside the public service to deliver a robust learning platform.

We are committed to equipping public servants with the knowledge and skills needed to perform to the highest standards and to serve Canadians with excellence.

Thank you.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much. I appreciate your economy of words greatly.

Now we have Mr. Joe Friday, and I'll resist making any commentary. You and I, sir, are perhaps from the same era, and we'll let it go at that.

Could you make some brief comments?

May 12th, 2016 / 4:50 p.m.

Joe Friday Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada

If there are going to be comments about any names, Mr. Chair, I'm sure that I would be the winner of the competition among my colleagues here, but I'm open to jokes.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

All right, all right, just the facts.

4:50 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

4:50 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada

Joe Friday

If I told you, Mr. Chair, that was not the first time I've heard that comment today, would you be surprised?

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

No, I wouldn't be surprised whatsoever.

Sir, please go ahead.

4:50 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada

Joe Friday

Thank you very much for invitation.

I'd like to introduce my colleagues France Duquette, deputy commissioner, and Éric Trottier, our chief financial officer.

Our office, Mr. Chair, was created in 2007 under the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act, as part of the federal government's accountability initiative. Our office provides a safe and confidential mechanism for public servants and members of the public to disclose wrongdoing committed in the public sector. We also work to protect from reprisal people who have disclosed—whistleblowers, that is—or people who have co-operated in investigations.

What I would like to underscore is that we are the external whistleblowing agency and that my position is that of an agent of Parliament, which ensures independence and neutrality in our work at all times.

Under the legislation, public servants are given the option to report wrongdoing internally or externally; that is, to their manager or to someone called a senior officer, which is an internal position required to be created in every department and agency. As well, they can use the external option, which is to come directly to my office. The choice is theirs.

The Treasury Board is responsible for the administration of the internal regime.

The Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada is often asked to speak of our ongoing investigations. Given the strict confidentiality provisions of the act, there to provide protections for all involved—the discloser, those participating as witnesses during an investigation, and the alleged wrongdoer or wrongdoers—we cannot confirm or deny the status of any file. We can and will only speak to those following the tabling in Parliament of a case report on a finding of wrongdoing.

Although we don't have jurisdiction over elected officials, we do examine any and all allegations and look at the actions and roles of public servants in the matter brought before us. Based on all the facts in a particular context, we then determine whether wrongdoing, as defined, was committed.

You invited me here today to speak about our priorities in delivering on the mandate I've just described. In order for us to do so, we generally maintain the same priorities from year to year.

They are to, first and foremost, ensure a sound management of our disclosure and reprisal regime that is timely, rigorous, independent and accessible.

Second, to foster a growing awareness and understanding of the whistleblowing regime.

And third, to ensure that the human resources capacity is in place to support those first two priorities.

In the past year, which was my first as the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner, we completed what we called a lean organization and all-organization initiative and we looked at every step in our operational process and the role of every person in those processes to ensure effectiveness, and by that I mean decisions that are timely, clear, consistent, accurate, complete, and fair.

In the coming year our goal is not only to continue to look at our own operational processes and implement process solutions but to guide our internal process internally and also to provide clarity and transparency to potential whistleblowers and reprisal complainants. We believe that people who come to our office should have as clear an understanding as possible of how their files will be handled and what to expect when they come to us for assistance and support. It will be an open process.

I am proud of our team, who have demonstrated resilience and professionalism, recognizing opportunities to improve and address file management issues as needed.

In terms of our second priority, our outreach efforts are increasingly targeting middle and non-management federal public servants. We see an opportunity to expand there.

While whistleblowing is gradually becoming more accepted, the fear of reprisal remains a major obstacle. We found this with the second focus group initiative that we recently completed, the results of which we are sharing with our key stakeholders, including the Treasury Board and the office of the chief human resources officer. We are commissioning a research paper in this regard to contribute to our own understanding and to the whistleblowing literature in Canada and the world.

With respect to our operations, we're projecting total expenditures of $5.4 million in 2016-17. In future years we plan to fill all our positions, which is up to 30 FTEs, and to continue to support initiatives that support our priorities. To give you an idea of where we are at this current moment in terms of operations, we started 2016-17 with 73 active files, and as of this morning, we have 28 active investigations.

I am confident that we will continue to be able to manage within our budget in the present circumstances.

Mr. Chair, I look forward to answering any questions members may have.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Well done.

Before we begin our questioning, I have one question for Mr. Friday. In your hard copy, you state that the office started 2016-17 with 73 active files, and there are currently 26 investigations under way. You mentioned verbally that there are 28. Which one would be correct?

4:55 p.m.

Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada

Joe Friday

We launched one this morning, and Ms. Duquette, my deputy commissioner, launched one last night after the speaking notes were finalized. That would be a correction, 28.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Our first round is for seven minutes. We will start with Mr. Drouin.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here, and for the just-in-time information.

For Ms. Donoghue, with regard to the reports on plans and priorities, I am just curious to understand why your number one priority is to ensure the non-partisan nature of the public. Was this in response to what happened with a certain candidate in the past, last year in the federal election? Is there no trust? What is happening there? Why is this your number one priority?

4:55 p.m.

Acting President, Public Service Commission

Christine Donoghue

That is the number one priority because that is the number one reason for the existence of the commission. It has nothing to do with the existing cases that are before the courts or the activities. It is just that, fundamentally, when we have a public service that is meant to be non-partisan, that is basically the core of what we do.

We monitor any activities that public servants may want to do. We offer them outreach tools so that they can assess.... They have to be able to participate in political activities, should they want to, as serving in the context of an election, while understanding the impacts on their job. If they want to be candidates, there is a legal obligation that they seek permission from the commission.

Those are the monitoring activities we do.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

I have looked at previous RPPs, and it was there, but it wasn't the number one priority. Then this year, boom, it is the number one priority. I was just wondering.

4:55 p.m.

Acting President, Public Service Commission

Christine Donoghue

I think our priorities are not necessarily in order of magnitude. They are equally important. It is just different as it relates to our mandate.

We have four priorities. One is just as important as another.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Speaking of other priorities, you are talking about hiring quality candidates. How are you modernizing staffing requirements? I speak as a millennial. How are you planning to attract new millennials into the system? We talk about this big gap that is coming as baby boomers retire. How are you modernizing this?

5 p.m.

Acting President, Public Service Commission

Christine Donoghue

We have basically allowed a lot more flexibility in the policies that we have. We had a very strong rule-based policy, which was actually not in alignment with the legislation. Part of the modernization is going back to what the principles of the act are. The principles of the act require that we allow for representation of all factions of Canadians.

We do a lot more outreach. We have done over 200 campaign visits to universities, where we basically do a lot of promotion of the public service. We do them in conjunction with departments, based on the needs of departments. We are also modernizing our tools so that we can better attract millennials.

I think part of it is that there is a lot more awareness within the public service of the importance of ensuring that recruitment and retention are important to be able to maintain strong service within the public service and grow the talent.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

As I mentioned previously, some of the baby boomers will be retiring. How are we ensuring that this information or corporate memory remains in the public service? Are you working with deputy heads to ensure that they have plans to do this? How are you measuring that?

5 p.m.

Acting President, Public Service Commission

Christine Donoghue

That is not within the scope of the mandate of the public service. I know that deputies definitely have that at hand. As a deputy in my organization.... We do ensure that we have corporate memory repositories or overlap in a position to ensure we have knowledge transfer. That is within the scope of deputy heads and how they manage their staffing systems.