Government Operations Committee on May 10th, 2018

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I don't know that I'm in a position to answer that. I didn't write the text of the budget.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I appreciate that you're not the Minister of Finance, but procurement and military procurement is a huge part of what you do and the budget is silent on it.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

Welcome, Mr. Fergus.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister and departmental officials for being here with us today.

I know that you don't want this issue to become a source of conflict, and I don't want that either. As you know, my riding is made up mostly of people who work for the federal government and many of them have had to deal with Phoenix problems.

This issue is causing a lot of stress and hassle. However, I must commend you because, since you took office, the tone has really changed. A lot of progress has been made on this file, and I congratulate you for that. However, I do have a few questions.

Minister, during your testimony today, you said that you did not plan to keep Phoenix in the long term.

What does the endgame look like for you with regard to Phoenix?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

To be cheeky, the endgame is that everybody is paid accurately, and on time.

It's going to take time and money to get there, and in parallel to us moving full steam ahead on stabilizing this system, a separate team, informed by the lessons from the acquisition of this system, is working to determine what the next system will be. Going full steam ahead and stabilizing this means transitioning departments to the pod concept, having ongoing technological and process improvements and automating as many of these functions as we can, and having a full-court press awareness campaign across the government on inputting data accurately and on time.

I cannot stress this enough, and this is not about blame whatsoever, but the more transactions that get input on time, the fewer the problems they will have with Phoenix. Phoenix doesn't like retroactivity. As I said, we wish it did, but it doesn't. We find that over 90% of the transactions input on time have no trouble with Phoenix.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Minister, those are impressive numbers, and you're absolutely right that things can be processed on time if we make sure they're being put in correctly. However, there is still that 10% of cases in which, even if they are input correctly and on time, Phoenix still seems a little buggy.

Has any serious consideration been given to hiving off the departments that do those calculations on time and accurately? Was any consideration given to hiving them off the system so that those people can get paid correctly, and then trying to devote greater resources to those cases that are more problematic?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Absolutely. Part of the flexibility within the pod concept—and Les can add to this—is the idea that we can be more responsive to the uniqueness and circumstances of each individual department. If there are specific collective agreement terms, if there's a certain type of pay, or if it's a certain type of work, like someone out on a Coast Guard boat for two weeks, they can't get their transactions put in on time by virtue of the way their work is organized. By dedicating pods to specific departments and agencies, we can address more directly the challenges and idiosyncrasies of any one department.

Les, can you add to that?

[Les Linklater]

One of the benefits of the pod concept is the dedicated resources in Miramichi that can then be focused exclusively with the HR and financial units within the departments they serve. They can deal with issues much more quickly as they arise. The relationships are being built, and we can work with those respective departments more directly, as the minister says, to address their particular priorities around the problems their particular work organization is experiencing.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Very quickly, Minister, on another issue, I know the department has done great work in terms of awarding contracts to, and trying to work with, indigenous peoples. Has greater thought been given to working with groups of Canadians, perhaps even racialized Canadians, that have had difficulty breaking through in the system and getting contracts?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

The answer will have to be really brief because his time is up.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Yes.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

We'll go to Mr. McCauley for five minutes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Very quickly, you talked about “Strong, Secure, Engaged”, and the money you identified there. By this point in the mandate, we should be at $6 billion a year. We're currently at $4 billion, so you're underfunding defence by about a full one-third. To actually achieve what's in “Strong, Secure, Engaged”, you'd have to increase funding by over 300%. We haven't seen that since the Korean War, so I would strongly suggest you go back and take a look at your math, because I don't think you're going to accomplish it.

Now, Minister, the reason I asked the question about Treasury Board not going after employees for overpay is because the last time you were here, I presented an email of about 100 pages from a constituent of mine, Sebastienne Critchley. She still hasn't had her 2016 T4 set, but they're going after her for a $7,000 gross overpay. She got her paycheque, and $7,000 was given to CRA. PSPC is calling her for that, and there are several others identified in her office, so that's why I asked that specific question. I would urge you to please follow up with your department to let them know the rules, because they're very clearly violating what Treasury Board is saying and what you're saying. Thank you for that.

I just want to get back, please, to the budget, A2.11. There's $307 million for Phoenix. I'd like to know what that money's specifically going to be used for, how you came up with that budget, and, again, what you're hoping to accomplish with that.

My second question is regarding the $653 million that's in A2.11 for public services. How is that money going to be detailed and shown in the Public Accounts?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Les, or Marty, do you want to take that?

[Les Linklater]

Regarding the funding for Phoenix, we have been building capacity on the HR front and also working with the vendor on systems. We are using—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Building capacity this past term. What is this $307 million for, please?

[Les Linklater]

These funds will allow us to continue to maintain that capacity and to augment it so that we can keep the compensation staff we've hired on strength, and to hire further.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

If it's part of an ongoing program, why is it not in the departmental plan?

[Marty Muldoon]

I'm glad you raised the question again, because it would be very presumptuous of us to put in plans, published documents, that which has not been voted by Parliament ahead of the schedule. It's unfortunate that we're in that timing issue—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

But your other estimates are in the plans.

[Marty Muldoon]

Because they're already available for you to vote on.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

There are items from the main estimates that are in your DP that haven't been voted on yet, just like A2.11, which is not in the departmental plans.

[Marty Muldoon]

That's why they're here, though. The other ones have been through Treasury Board. They're here for you to vote on. These ones, we will go to Treasury Board with.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Sorry, everything in the main estimates for PSPC has gone through the Treasury Board process, is that what you're saying?

[Marty Muldoon]

Well, most of it's renewal funding, but if there's an item like G7—