Government Operations Committee on June 11th, 2018

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

For vote 40.

[Brian Pagan]

—initially identified when the main estimates were tabled, they would have followed the same process, yes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

That's interesting, because we asked other departments this question, and of course that was one of the issues why we asked you here today. They weren't able to substantiate where the numbers came from. One of the departments, actually, when we asked about what the details were—and you're telling me that they've already gone through the process—told us that to expect an explanation of what the money would be for before being approved would be preposterous.

They said to us that it would be preposterous for an MP ask what the details were when the money hasn't even been approved, or the plan hadn't even been developed. Do you agree with that?

[Brian Pagan]

I'm not familiar with the exchange, Mr. McCauley, but I would point out that—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

That was from the senior assistant deputy minister and the CFO for PSPC.

[Brian Pagan]

—there are two categories of items in vote 40.

There was $220 million included in the initial listing that has already been approved, and in those cases the departments assembled here today can provide detailed responses to your questions about FTEs, the votes, the results, and the indicators.

For the items that are in the budget that have not yet been approved, departments are—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask a question of Mr. Mongeau, please.

[Brian Pagan]

—in a position where, because their items have not yet been approved by Treasury Board, they will have some difficulty in explaining—

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, my colleague, Mr. McCauley, had a question for department officials, and wished to use his time for that purpose. I would ask you, as the chair, if you could direct the appropriate witness to answer the question on Mr. McCauley's time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

I have suspended the time, so you're not being docked any time.

I would encourage both our witnesses and our colleagues around this table to respect one another in terms of getting a fulsome answer when asked a direct question. But should Mr. McCauley, since he has limited time, want to interrupt to go to a different question for a different panellist, I would ask Mr. Pagan that you respect that as well.

Mr. McCauley, I understand that you had a question for Monsieur Mongeau. Please proceed.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Sorry, and I appreciate that we're just short of time.

On strengthening motor vehicle safety, in vote 40, there is $3.9 million. Allotted was $3,156,000, and withheld was $727,000. How did you arrive at $3.9 million, and why is the allocation to spend, and I guess approved by Treasury Board, only roughly $3.2 million?

[Lori MacDonald, Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll take that question.

Under the motor vehicle safety program, we developed a three-year action plan, and based on that action plan we identify specific activities that we want to undertake. We work with Treasury Board on those numbers. They include everything from the number of FTEs that we may require, to operating money we may require, to work we may be doing with the provinces and territories, or to work that's already under way. We develop numbers and requirements based on that, which we work with Treasury Board to determine what is the best—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

What is the time difference between the $3.9 million and the allocation of the $3.2 million? How much time apart?

[Lori MacDonald]

I don't have that information in front of me, but I can tell you that we look at year over year what kind of work activity we have under way, what we've accomplished, and what we need to accomplish going forward, and we adjust allocations as we go forward.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

What would we know now that we didn't know a few short months ago when we put the $3.9 million down, that would leave the $727,000 difference?

[Lori MacDonald]

It could be depending on the kind of project that we have. It could be related to a research initiative. It could be related to work that we might have undergoing with industry, as an example, that they might be doing, which impacts us. That is the very fluid kind of work that we do that could change week by week, so we make those determinations based on that information that's available to us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you.

Mr. Blaikie, for seven minutes, please.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much.

Due to the time constraints, I'm going to have to divide my questions between some department-specific questions and some more general questions about the process.

This question is for Ms. Laniel, from the Department of Finance.

By what point in the year typically are the major new budget items approved by cabinet? At what point would the Department of Finance know which initiatives of the departmental ask list are going to be included in the budget and which ones are not?

[Adelle Laniel, Chief Financial Officer, Financial Management Directorate, Corporate Services Branch, Department of Finance]

My understanding of the budgeting process—and I am new at Finance, so I haven't been through the process yet—is that it starts coming in in the fall, but it does vary from one year to another. There is no confirmation until the start of the new calendar year. There are no approvals.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

By January, would Finance have a pretty good sense of what's going to be included in the budget?

[Adelle Laniel]

There are frameworks, but there are no approvals that have been done yet.

[Brian Pagan]

Mr. Chair, may I interject at this point?

There is a very important principle here about cabinet confidence.

Mr. Blaikie, I do understand and appreciate the question, but when we speak of timing in terms of when the executive makes certain decisions, that is a matter of cabinet confidence.

In response to Mr. McCauley's question about the difference between allocated and withheld, I would simply point out for the benefit of the committee, and we've been clear on this, that—

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

That's fine, but that's not my question.

Thank you, but you don't have to answer somebody else's question on my time. You can come back to that with Mr. McCauley.

[Brian Pagan]

Okay.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Part of the role of the committee is to evaluate the quality of the estimates process, and one of the questions at issue is how quickly initiatives from the budget are developed in conjunction with Treasury Board, or not, in relation to the timing of the budget. It's pretty hard to make an evaluation if we can't even get a very general sense of when....

Certainly, by a certain point cabinet must have a.... I don't think we're asking for any particular detail, and we're not asking for the timing of any particular decision. We're just asking when, approximately, can it be said that cabinet has an idea of what the major new budget items are going to be. That's a pretty broad interpretation of cabinet confidence.

In any event, how quickly, after new budget items are approved, so for any specific budget item, would that information be shared with Treasury Board?