Evidence of meeting #171 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was military.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Colleagues, since we have quorum, I'll call the meeting to order.
I want to thank our guests for being here. Colleagues, in the first panel we have before us representatives from the National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman's office, and the Office of the Veterans Ombudsman. I thank you all for being here.
Mr. Lick, my understanding is that you will be first to speak and you have an opening statement of approximately 10 minutes. Is that correct?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Following that, Mr. Dalton, we'll ask you for your opening statement. Following those two, we will go directly into questions.
Mr. Lick, the floor is yours.
Interim Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank the committee members for inviting me to speak to you today about hiring veterans for public service positions.
I'm very humbled to appear before you today as National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces ombudsman.
My name is Greg Lick. Prior to assuming my current role, I served as a director general of operations of the Canadian Coast Guard. I am also proud to have served in the naval reserves for 17 years.
Joining me today is retired major Carole Lajoie, who serves as our director of education and collaboration. Madame Lajoie has a great knowledge of, and experience in, the topic you are studying today. If there's a question I can't answer, I'm confident that she can.
I'm also pleased to appear with the veterans ombudsman, Craig Dalton. Craig and I have already established a strong working relationship. Our offices are already exploring areas of mutual collaboration and interest.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Are we good now?
Sorry for the interruption. Mr. Lick, please proceed.
Interim Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
We recently presented to two external stakeholder groups together, and we are working on more opportunities to take the Craig and Greg show on the road.
I was appointed as ombudsman on an interim basis in November 2018. For me, serving this important constituency for the past seven months has been some of the most rewarding service in my career.
Every morning, I wake up and read the news summaries to see the National Defence community’s positive impact both on the global stage and in Canada.
We're witnessing it right now. Seeing Canadian Armed Forces members deployed in our own backyards in the National Capital Region to deal with the devastating floods reminds us of our military's vital role in protecting Canadians. To them, I say thank you.
The constituency that our office serves is extremely large. Not only do we serve members of the Canadian Armed Forces, both regular and reserve forces, but also National Defence civilians, Canadian Rangers, cadets, Junior Canadian Rangers, non-public funds employees, new recruits, as well as the families of all those I have just named and persons who are attached or seconded to the Canadian Armed Forces.
These responsibilities are not taken lightly by me or the team of over 65 passionate public servants who work in our office. In fact, the professionalism of these employees and the sense of duty they have to this constituency are, in my view, virtually unrivalled. Some of these employees have been with the office since they turned on the lights in 1998. As a result, we possess the institutional memory necessary to fulfill our mandate, assuring fairness and contributing to lasting change for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces community.
This institutional memory has helped me to understand the history of our engagement regarding the very important subject that your committee has been studying.
In addition, in my career at the Canadian Coast Guard, and especially as a senior executive within that organization, I’ve been both vocal in my support for and active in hiring retired members.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
I'm sorry. There's a bit of a translation problem. We'll try to get it straightened out.
Colleagues, I would suggest that if we can't get the translation on one channel, just switch back and forth between channels so you're able to understand the French and English versions.
Once again, Mr. Lick, you have my apologies. Please proceed.
Interim Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
My support was based on what I saw as natural links between the Canadian Coast Guard and the Canadian Armed Forces.
I recognize that the links between the training elements of the Canadian Armed Forces and organizations such as the Canadian Coast Guard, Canada Border Services Agency, Parks Canada and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police may appear less clear for other departments as they look to retired members to fill public service positions. However, I believe that all public service hiring managers must meet retired members halfway. We're committed to giving retired members post-service employment opportunities. In my experience, the public service ultimately gains from their expertise.
However, for members of the Canadian Armed Forces who are medically releasing, we have an obligation to provide them priority access to public service positions. Those members who are medically releasing as a result of an illness or injury sustained as a direct result of their service are placed at the top of the statutory category for priority entitlement.
For those whose illness or injury is not as a result of their service, their priority entitlement is entrenched in the regulatory category. In either case, we have a duty that far outstrips a policy or initiative. It was within this context, as well as the context of the introduction and passage of the Veterans Hiring Act that my predecessor became publicly engaged on this issue. In 2015, he published a report in consultation with Mr. Dalton's predecessor that recommended “that the Canadian Armed Forces is best placed to make the determination of whether a medical release is attributable to service pursuant to Bill C-27.”
More importantly, the ill or injured Canadian Armed Forces member stands to gain significant benefit from quicker access to enhanced hiring opportunities in the public service.
In the end, the Veterans Hiring Act vested Veterans Affairs with the responsibility for adjudicating applications of CAF members seeking access to this priority list held by the Public Service Commission. Since that time, Veterans Affairs has struggled to meet its service standards, an unfortunate consequence that has seen itself play out in numerous media stories and public debate.
My interest in appearing before you today is not to fuel any of that debate. Rather, I want to provide you, in plain speak, what our office believes to be the elements that need to be considered to make this overall initiative a success.
First, we must consider perhaps the most relevant statistic. The average Canadian Armed Forces member will release around their 40th birthday. This means that former members have quite a few employable years before they're fully retired. Experience in the Canadian Armed Forces is unique, and the federal public service has the potential to harness quite a lot of this energy as it looks to fill its ranks with qualified individuals.
Medically released members may face greater barriers to entry and challenges in obtaining and maintaining a second career. For this reason, logically we have the provisions of the Veterans Hiring Act, as well as priority entitlements, to ease entry into public service employment.
However, there are delays for Veterans Affairs Canada to adjudicate files that would allow individuals to gain priority access to those jobs. In addition, there's a lengthy process on the Public Service Commission side in terms of putting these individuals on the priority list.
The natural consequence of these two administrative factors is that fully deserving and qualified former members of the Canadian Armed Forces are missing out on opportunities as a result of the administrative delays. Veterans Affairs Canada's statistics are getting better but are far from perfect. This causes a great deal of anxiety among Canadian Armed Forces members who are transitioning from military to civilian life, or from my jurisdiction to Mr. Dalton's jurisdiction.
Administratively, VAC has eliminated some duplicated adjudications to improve their response times. This is promising. What is equally promising is that the armed forces and Veterans Affairs Canada have established a process by which Veterans Affairs can now almost instantly access relevant information contained within the Canadian Forces' health information system to speed up their adjudications. This initiative is expected not only to speed up priority entitlement decisions, but also adjudications as a whole.
Nevertheless, if that applicant still faces significant wait times, more creative solutions may need to come to the fore when it comes to getting these individuals on the priority list.
Some non-medically released military members may already have private sector jobs. Others may have jobs in the federal public service, given that serving members can already apply for internal competitions under mobility and preference provisions. However, for many of them, this may not be the case.
Many constituents and hiring managers have told us that, despite the government's efforts, there's still a lack of understanding of how the knowledge and skills acquired through military service translate into the civilian work environment. This is troubling, considering that this issue has been a key priority for retired members and the government since at least 2011.
For example, the Standing Committee on National Defence recommended in its 2014 report entitled “Caring for Canada’s Ill and Injured Military Personnel” that the government “develop a comprehensive, algorithmic, military skills translation software tool to facilitate CF members to obtain civilian employment upon release.”
Such sophisticated translators already exist in the United States. An American military member can simply enter their service units and the certifications they have received into a computer database. The computer then spits out those civilian job equivalencies as well as a civilian resumé template once the member has made some simple drop-down menu selections.
The CAF has developed a translator tool, but having a singular government-endorsed tool would be valuable for current and former CAF members and public service hiring managers. Whatever that tool looks like, it should take the next steps beyond simply transforming a military occupation code to a civilian occupation. It must incorporate and recognize the leadership and management experience that is gained over the course of one's career here in Canada, as well as on international deployments.
It is also evident that there is a genuine lack of awareness of valuable programs, such as the vocational rehabilitation program for serving members. This program enables eligible CAF members who have been notified of an impending medical release, with the approval of their commanding officer, to begin vocational rehabilitation training for up to six months prior to either their start of retirement leave or their final CAF release date, whichever is the earlier date.
What does the program for serving members mean for hiring managers in the public service?
The armed forces will continue to pay a member's salary while that member works within your organization. If that member performs well within your organization, you have a high likelihood of bringing that individual on full time if you have a vacancy to fill and the selection criteria are met. The program is incredible, but few people know about it, despite the fact that it is a perfect example of seamless transition. Our office and I have used this program in the past, and we have gained from it.
Ultimately, the public service, and particularly those veterans now working in the public service, must take responsibility and be supported in mentoring, coaching and training service members in their transition. We have to make it as easy as possible for public service managers to hire former CAF members.
As the former Coast Guard director general of operations, I was committed to the hiring of CAF members by my organization. I, and others, travelled to CAF bases and wings in order to make the sales pitch for, and mentor and coach, releasing members to sign up with us. I know there are many public service hiring managers who are just as enthusiastic, but we have to provide them the information and the tools to empower them. We all have a stake in this.
Members of the committee, Mr. Chair, I want to thank you once again for the opportunity to appear before you today.
I'm free to answer any questions you may have related to this important file.
Thank you.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much.
As I mentioned earlier, before we go to questions, we'll have another statement, this time by Mr. Dalton.
Mr. Dalton, the floor is yours.
Craig L. Dalton Veterans Ombudsman, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman
Mr. Chair, thank you.
Mr. Chair and committee members, thank you for inviting me to appear before you today and for giving me the opportunity to talk about priority hiring.
I'm joined by Sharon Squire, the deputy veterans ombudsman.
I would like to begin by explaining what we hope to do with our time today, and that's to share with you our perspective based on what we've heard from veterans on priority hiring over the last number of years and to speak from the perspective of an organization that has hired veterans as recently as two weeks ago through priority hiring.
I should also declare a bit of a personal bias, too, that I try to remain conscious of. I think our veteran population represents a huge pool of talent that should be leveraged. It is not always understood across Canada in the public and private sectors. I've developed that bias as a result of serving for 25 years and transitioning to the public service but also by working as a deputy head in two provinces and now with the federal government and having hired veterans through normal and priority hiring processes.
I would like to commend you for undertaking this important study. The Veterans Hiring Act, and indeed all initiatives related to veteran priority hiring are important initiatives. They have the potential, when implemented effectively, to have a considerable impact both for government as a whole and for veterans and their families.
From the perspective of a veteran, priority hiring represents an opportunity for one at the end of a career of service to Canada and Canadians to continue that service in another form. That's an incredibly powerful opportunity. I think we would all be aware of some of the challenges that occur with transitioning from uniform to civilian life. Priority hiring is one way, if implemented effectively, we could address and support these challenges.
They're not just opportunities for veterans, for those who are medically released, those who have suffered illness and injury as a result of their service to our country. It represents an obligation, an obligation on the part of government and an obligation on the part of Canadians to support those veterans who, through no choice of their own, are unable to continue their service in uniform. I think it's quite self-evident why it's important to get this right for those Canadians who have sacrificed for us and all Canadians.
From the perspective of the public service, veteran priority hiring initiatives represent a tremendous opportunity to tap into what is a large pool of highly trained, educated and experienced Canadians, roughly 10,000 servicemen and servicewomen, regular and reserve forces, released for a variety of reasons every year. Not all of those individuals would wish to pursue a career in the public service at the federal level. Some will enter the private sector. Some have the entrepreneurial bug. Some want to work in the not-for-profit sector, but a number are looking for public service employment. As a large employer across the land, it makes perfect sense, I think, for the federal government to want to engage these 10,000 or so highly capable and talented Canadians every year as the public service seeks to attract, recruit and retain the best and the brightest.
Lastly, from the perspective of government, I think veteran priority hiring represents an opportunity to demonstrate leadership in an important area. This leadership has already been demonstrated in instances like the introduction of the Veterans Hiring Act, but when it comes to implementation, I think much more could be done.
There are a number of private sector companies and corporations across Canada that have made it a mission to hire veterans and to advocate for the value of veterans to others in the private sector. There are also a number of organizations and groups that work hard to advocate and link veterans up to both private and public sector employers. These individuals demonstrate significant leadership. We think that the federal government could continue to play a leadership role and play an even greater leadership role as the largest employer in Canada and send a real message to the rest of the public and private sectors that there's tremendous value in hiring a veteran.
I was struck by one of the individuals who wrote to the committee to share his thoughts on his experience with veteran priority hiring. After a very articulate, compelling story of what he encountered, he wound up with a question. That question at the end of his submission, and this speaks to the role of leadership, was, “If the federal government won't hire veterans, why would the private or public sectors in other jurisdictions hire veterans?” I think that is certainly something worth considering.
How effective is the Veterans Hiring Act? How effective has implementation been? I understand that is really the task of your committee.
To be frank, I would suggest that at the strategic level that's a very hard question to answer. We have some statistics and those statistics are interesting and they tell a story, but when I look at them, I don't think they tell the full story.
One of the reasons I don't think we're in a position to really answer that question is that we've established an intent in the Veterans Hiring Act to enhance veteran employment, but we have not established or articulated clear objectives. It's a case of knowing where we want to go but not necessarily describing in general and not necessarily describing specifically how we plan to get there and what success looks like. In addition, we haven't assigned clear accountabilities for delivering on whatever these objectives or outcomes might be. I think that's reflected in the testimony you've received from veterans in person and also in the submissions you've received.
On a more tactical level, there is clearly room for improving the delivery of priority hiring in the Veterans Hiring Act. I don't intend to repeat the testimony you have already received or indeed repeat some of the comments that Mr. Lick has made, but I would like to highlight a number of the observations that our office has made. They've been submitted to you in writing, so I won't go through each and every one but I would like to highlight just a couple.
The first is that the process is too complex and not veteran-centric. I would describe this as the burden resting on the shoulders of a veteran who is releasing and looking to be engaged with the public service, and not on the institution itself.
If you consider the context of a veteran releasing, particularly those who are releasing for medical reasons—again, many of whom are not releasing of their own volition—just try to imagine what it's like to be at a point in life where you've been told that you're no longer able to serve your country in the manner that you had and that you're going to release. Employment—finding a sense of purpose and finding meaning in your post-service life—is just one of the many questions you're trying to wrestle with.
You may be wondering about your personal medical care and continuing it post-release. You may be wondering where you're going to live, where your spouse is going to work and if this is going to affect your children's education. It would be an oversimplification to describe this as a stressful and challenging time in the life of a service member, but I think it's pretty clear that it is.
If anything, the opportunity to attach to the federal public service should be a bit of a lifeline. It should be a way to address one of those key questions, that of, “How am I going to find purpose in my post-uniform life?”
Unfortunately, today that's not necessarily the case. I could walk you through the process as shared with us by a recent hire on our part, but suffice it to say that it is anything but simple, and in my opinion it is not designed to help a veteran achieve success in the employment realm.
Decisions are not made in a timely manner. Mr. Lick has addressed the attribution of service question. That is one that continues to come up frequently. Not all CAF members are aware of the priority hiring process, nor are they necessarily aware, based on their employment experience, of what it takes to participate in the process of seeking employment in the federal public service.
I am going to skip a whole bunch of my notes and just speak about the federal public service side and some of the challenges we hear about and that we know exist.
One is on the part of HR managers and understanding the intricacies of priority hiring initiatives and being able to act on them. We've experienced that in our office recently. Equally, but more important, perhaps, there is a lack of understanding on the part of leaders and managers across the public service of the value that exists in service members who take off the uniform.
To share a short story, as the deputy head, I had an assistant deputy minister approach me about a competition he was running. They had narrowed it down to three individuals on the short list, one of whom was a veteran. This individual said, “My gut tells me to go with this individual.” He said, “I'm concerned, though.” One of the challenges he was trying to address was the leadership environment on his senior team, and he didn't know how this veteran would react in working in this new environment.
In the end, I told him to go with his gut. He ended up hiring this veteran, but for me it was another indication of this unconscious bias that exists, and if we don't do something about educating folks, it may continue to exist. This individual came to me some time later and said that in 26 years it was the best hire he'd made in the public service.
In conclusion, I'd like to offer three recommendations for consideration by the committee.
One, establish and assign clear outcomes to departments and organizations across government.
Two, establish clear accountabilities for delivering on these outcomes.
Three, ensure that all medically releasing veterans who wish to be considered for public sector employment opportunities are fully able, from both a personal and administrative standpoint, to actively participate in that process from the moment they receive notice that they're going to be released.
Mr. Chair and committee members, thank you. I look forward to answering your questions.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much.
We'll now go directly into our questions.
We'll start with Mr. Peterson for seven minutes, please.
Liberal
Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thanks to everyone for being with us today and sharing your opening statements. Thank you for your service to our country and your continuing service. I very much appreciate it.
This is a lot to cover in the small period of time that I have.
Mr. Dalton, I'll start with you. Of the three recommendations that you listed, the first one is “establish and assign clear targets to departments and organizations”. Are those targets along the line of quotas like we see in the U.S. and other jurisdictions? Is that what you had in mind when you made that recommendation?
Liberal
Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Have you given any thought to what those may be? Would they be driven by the departments, in your opinion?
Veterans Ombudsman, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman
No. I would say that it's clearly going to be a challenging exercise because of the nature of work that takes place in the diverse departments across governments, so those targets could vary. I would point to some of the testimony received from Veterans Affairs where they set a target and are working toward that target. I think that target probably reflects the reality of that work environment.
Liberal
Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
You would consider that they would be driven by the department.
Veterans Ombudsman, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman
Yes, I would see the Public Service Commission and departments collaboratively identifying these targets.
Liberal
Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Thank you.
This is a question for both of you, probably, and it's more of a general question.
There is a transition going on, obviously, from CAF over to VAC in general, not just for hiring but for everything when the release happens. Do you work together to try to make that more seamless? I guess the phrase everyone is using these days is “seamless”. Above and beyond just hiring, how can we work together to make that transition period more service-friendly?
Interim Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
From the two ombudsman's offices, in terms of how we might deal with a particular complaint that comes to either of us, the typical jurisdictional line is, if it's caused by an issue to do with National Defence, our office would deal with it, and if it's caused by the Veterans Affairs process, they would deal with it. If there's a grey area in the middle, our teams work closely together to work out that compliant. We don't actually play in the game of throwing the ball back and forth.
Liberal
Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
That's what I was getting to. That's good to hear. Thank you for that.
In your statement, Mr. Lick, among other things, you said that the natural consequence of these two administrative factors is that fully deserving and qualified former members of the Canadian Armed Forces are missing out on opportunities as a result of administrative delays.
How can we alleviate those administrative delays?
Interim Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
I'll touch a bit on what Mr. Dalton said as one of the recommendations, because I think that's very important. The delays are caused by the time it takes to adjudicate. If it's a medically releasing member, it's in the realm of Veterans Affairs. That takes time. One of the processes that I think has a huge amount of possibility of reducing that time for delays is in having almost real-time access to medical information on the member that can easily pass back and forth between CAF and Veterans Affairs to make that adjudication and make it easier to accomplish.
I think what Mr. Dalton had said in the third recommendation is actually very important. We just don't wait until the point of medically releasing before they get on the priority list. Let's think about it as soon as they get that notice that they may medically release or they will medically release. Why can't we then pass that information on to the Public Service Commission to get them on the priority list at that point?
If in the end result they don't medically release, they just come back off the list. That could shorten the time probably quite significantly.
Liberal
Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
How does that medical release procedure work in the armed forces? What would the usual time frame be? How much of a runway would be given so you could actually start that list early, just from a practical standpoint?
Carole Lajoie Director of Education and Collaboration, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Good afternoon.
For the administrative review, it's once the permanent category has been established. If you've been ill or injured and now you're in high risk of breaching universality of service, there's a review to see what can be your future employment, either within the CAF or after.
That review can take, in general, about a year from the beginning to the end, but from the moment the decision is rendered as administrative release, saying you will be releasing, for the majority of CAF members it is six months ahead of their release date. This means the member has six months to turn their life around and try to find employment for a seamless transition.
Liberal
Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
During those six months, are they still fully entitled to all the benefits they had as a member of the Canadian Armed Forces?
