Evidence of meeting #172 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was military.
A recording is available from Parliament.
As an Individual
It was the example. I was inspired when I heard him talk. He was so pro-veteran. He was passionate when he spoke about wanting an explanation as to why a veteran was screened out, if they screened a veteran out.
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC
Exactly, and you'd have to have pretty good reasons to—
As an Individual
Right, and obviously the directors say, “I don't want to go into the president's office, so give me that veteran.”
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC
That implies that there has to be a lot of accommodation, but why would there be that much accommodation? I don't see it necessary. You were saying that you bring them down, Mr. Hewitt, but how would you bring them down? You have skills. You have talent. You have experience.
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC
You were saying at some point that you understand that, in the context of the public service, you may bring it down.
As an Individual
I'm saying they have an efficiency bar, and I'm saying I think it's a bad idea to bring that bar down for us but I think they should show us—
As an Individual
—the elevations of how to get there. Let us see what's going on and let us see how we can access that job.
We need accountability from the HR. I phoned them and I asked them where I went wrong, if there were any rubrics that they go by, and is there a consensus that I can get some answers as to what... or is everything arbitrary? They said they all kind of think the same, all the HRs.
I said, “So they can arbitrarily get us out, deny us for any reason whatsoever?” Yes.
Liberal
As an Individual
Deny employment, yes.
There's no consensus. There are no parameters on what they.... They can disqualify. I've been disqualified for experience being over five years. I've been disqualified for.... I have a list of disqualifications.
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC
Not having enough experience...?
How would you explain that, Mr. Grant, that there seems to be this disparity between the aspirations of both the department and the public service and the realities that veterans face?
As an Individual
This is a personal opinion, and I understand why the Public Service Commission, with new directions of staffing, has delegated as far down as they can. They empower the hiring managers quite a bit in making decisions about who does and does not get hired.
The thing that I'm advocating for is that there needs to be some oversight of that.
Liberal
As an Individual
There's oversight, obviously, of employment equity hiring, and I go back to that example. Yes, most veterans are not an employment equity group, but they're pretty darned special. The Government of Canada thinks they're special. They amended the Public Service Employment Act because of their service, so let's have a look at what's happening in that hiring space and hold people accountable.
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC
Do you have any other comments on the hiring, Mr. Ticknor?
I'm sorry, but we're forgetting our guests on the phone. We haven't asked them any questions.
Mr. Ticknor.
Sergeant-at-Arms, Chairman of Voluntary Resources and Executive Committee Member, Branch 350, Royal Canadian Legion
I agree with what you're going with. You were mentioning reference.... Yes, there need to be some higher accountability standards in reference to human resources delegating or implementing decisions on their own and finding out what the critical empirical mindset is and why they made those decisions. If somebody comes exhibiting certain skill sets that are deemed transferable and then is denied, there should be an appeal body present to overlook the judgment based on the HR.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much.
Colleagues, I want to try to get in at least another couple of interventions, but I'm going to have to cut down your time.
Mr. Deltell and Mr. Drouin, you have three minutes each. Then we'll have to suspend to get our next panel of witnesses here.
Mr. Deltell, you have three minutes.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Grant, last week, we had the pleasure of welcoming some veterans to the committee. They told us that they understood the current needs, and the need to make room in the public service for minorities, visible minorities, women and LGBT groups, and so on.
One of their comments, which was surprising but entirely congruent with reality, was that they were four white heterosexual males in their fifties, and they did not fall into any of these categories.
What do you think about that?
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
This is a very touchy one.
We all want to see balance, equality, gender equity. We want LGBT people, who were mistreated for centuries, to have their place in society, and that is quite legitimate. That said, the veterans who came to testify here were four white men in their fifties, English-speaking native Canadians, born here from families that have been present for several generations. They added that they were heterosexual.
What can they do to obtain positions in the public service, despite the fact that through certain measures, the public service is trying to bring in women, visible minorities, new Canadians and LGBT persons?
As an Individual
I don't know how many people are hired in the public service every year, but I know it is a high number. There is a lot of room for a large variety of people. I am quite favourable to employment equity, but I am equally favourable to the Veterans Hiring Act. I think veterans are not targeted by employment equity, but they are special and should have a place in the public service.