Evidence of meeting #172 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was military.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the witnesses for being here.
Mr. Grant, again, on that relationship that the Veterans Hiring Act has among VAC, PSC and DND, everybody has a piece in this, so nobody is necessarily responsible to properly administer the act. Therefore, as I see it, nobody is accountable to ensure that we have veterans in our public service. Should we try to make one person accountable for the act?
As an Individual
The first thing I would like to say is that a lot of good people put a lot of energy into the VHA: the Public Service Commission, Justice, DND and Veterans Affairs. It predated my time there but I heard people talking about it. They're very proud of it and I really think they got it right. It's an act, so it's not prescriptive by nature.
One of the things we learned when we tried to operationalize it was, okay, who is taking the lead...? As of now, I would say that the deputy minister of VAC is taking the lead, but he's doing that because he's a man who takes charge.
What's going to happen in the future?
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
The other issue is that you mentioned that there are programs, and I'm sure that not every public servant or manager knows about those programs like the individual placement and support program.
Would it be helpful—we will have to make recommendations—for veterans to know that as well? Once they apply, you can say, “By the way, there are programs that exist, and here they are.” You can facilitate the hiring for managers.
As an Individual
There is so much happening when you're releasing. I was on a release and I couldn't believe how much was happening. There is so much information thrown at you at the second career assistance network seminars. You do a transition interview at the release centre, and then you're just catching your feet as a civilian. I know that the director of transition services in the Canadian Armed Forces gives comprehensive briefings and Veterans Affairs gives comprehensive briefings, so there's a layered thing happening there.
With regard to programs, again, I'm pro-VHA. I'm drinking the VHA Kool-Aid, but when you look at it, in the five years you get from your date of release or when your priority is activated, you can leverage all kinds of things.
First of all, if you're on medical release that gives you time to get yourself right, get yourself job-ready. You can leverage the education benefit and go back to school. You can leverage career transition services to get your resumé up, your interviewing skills up. You can leverage the veterans in the public service unit to help you if you want to get a public service job. There are a lot of resources. I just think we have to continue pushing the word out to veterans and those considering transition that they're there.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
—you've run out of time, which is always a problem in these committee hearings, particularly when we're having the testimony that you've provided.
First and foremost, let me say thank you for your service to your country, to all of you here present, and to Mr. Corcoz, who perhaps is still with us by teleconference. What I would ask is that if you have additional information you think would be of benefit to this committee, please submit any recommendations or suggestions to our clerk. It will help us form part of the final report, our final study.
Mr. Ticknor in particular, you indicated that you had many other pieces of collateral information—I think that is the way you put it—that you would like to submit to us. Please, sir, feel free to do that through our clerk. Even though you didn't get to it personally and in public testimony, it will form part of our final study and our final report.
Sergeant-at-Arms, Chairman of Voluntary Resources and Executive Committee Member, Branch 350, Royal Canadian Legion
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you all for being here.
Colleagues, we will suspend for a couple of minutes until we get our next video conference witnesses ready.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Colleagues, thank you. If you can see the video screens, you'll see that we have two witnesses joining us via video conference.
We have by video conference from British Columbia, Mr. Thomas Harrison. We also have via video conference from Hamilton, Ontario, Mr. Ed Simmons, and in person we have Mr. Perry.
I believe all gentlemen have opening statements. We will start with Mr. Harrison, from Comox.
Make it five minutes or less if you could, please, sir. The floor is yours.
Thomas Harrison As an Individual
Thank you very much for hearing me.
My name is Thomas Harrison, and I'm a chief warrant officer currently serving on my way out on a medical, 34 years in. I'm in education transition right now and that predominantly triggered me to talk to this committee.
In my year and a half worth of looking for work in the federal government I'm finding that I am very unsuccessful. I have it fine-tuned down to education. We have a lot of skills, but we don't have degrees. Can I go into a university class? I am doing university right now and excel absolutely, but I don't have that degree. I'm in six pools right now. I've been turned down in one and I have been retained in five, but I've been retained for the last two years without a whisper, as we say in the army: crickets. That's all I hear is crickets.
I'm not doing this search with a priority referral number, and I think that's significant. I think that any veteran has sufficient skills to be employed in the federal government one way or another, and shouldn't need a priority referral to get in the door. We have the skills. We work with the Canadian government every day.
I'm very disappointed in the process. Some of the tasking is certainly skewed towards a civilian approach, and I totally get that because the bulk of the recruiting is coming from civilian society. However, when we're doing things like judgment testing, we in the forces use very much a direct method. We use firm, fair and friendly in conflict resolution. When you start using those types of skills that you've learned over 34 years and put it into a judgment test, you can fail considerably in the judgment test because that's not what they're looking for. They're looking more for friendly and go to the supervisor all the time, not self-help, stuff like that.
In summary, my main point for being here is that I think all veterans have sufficient skills to stand alone and be employed within the federal government. However, a lot of us are getting screened out or just put in the queue never to be phoned again, and that's where I stand and that's why I'm here to talk to you today.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much.
We'll now go to Mr. Simmons.
Mr. Simmons, if you could have an opening statement of five minutes or less, sir, I would appreciate it.
Ed Simmons
Hello. I'm Ed Simmons, a veteran of the Canadian regular army. I was invited to participate in this discussion about hiring veterans in the Canadian government. This was and is very important topic to me, along with finally being able to voice my opinion. The next step in the process was to send forms to be filled out. These forms triggered an anxiety, making me regret agreeing to participate. The fear of filling out forms has been torture for many years, dealing with Veterans Affairs. Now that the Legion has stepped up and understands my fears, I might have a chance. I think veterans would be better able to understand.
In 1961, I answered an ad for Canadian army recruitment. Age and education only put one foot in the door. After a long interview, physical and psychiatric background check, I was told to report for duty. The first day we were told to expect 50% attrition. There were close to 52 of us who made it through that phase of the training. The extreme discipline and training resulted in personal strength that would guide me in all future decisions.
After years of training, extreme emphasis on work ethics and accomplishing any mission, I felt the investment our government made in me had paid off. On completing my service with security clearance, training and all other skills, I didn't see a future in the military for me. With honourable discharge papers in hand, I approached the federal government for work and was turned away with no explanation. At the time, I considered it a horrible waste of an extremely large investment. If military efficiency and determination to achieve goals were applied to government departments, we would not have year-long backlogs, as in Veterans Affairs.
After living through the military experience, I believe government would benefit greatly from investments they have made in veterans. The veterans would benefit by having a way to continue to serve the country they love. In my opinion, a win-win situation is best for all. I hope these thoughts will have some impact on future hiring.
Thank you very much.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much, sir.
Finally, we have in person, Mr. Alex Perry.
Mr. Perry, could we have your opening statement, please?
Alex Perry As an Individual
Hello, and thank you for inviting me today.
My name is Alex Perry. I have served in the military for 17 years, with a mix of six years in the reserve and another 11 years in the regular force. I received a medical release effective May 8, 2018.
These have been my obstacles to reintegration and finding employment in the public sector. I have listened to your past sessions and I have created my own list of shortcomings. I also hope to provide clarifying information on past questions you've had for other witnesses.
I was given a DND case manager whose services ended when my contract expired, while VAC's case manager would not see me until I was 30 days from release. To my knowledge, they shared zero information with each other. Going forward, members should be put in touch with a VAC case manager as soon as they know where they are going to be released.
The burden to seek information about retirement or release is placed on the member. SCAN seminars are held annually. There is no set schedule for when they are run, and they run on a first-come, first-served basis. If you sign up for it and it's full, that's too bad and you won't get a chance to do it again. Priority should be given to those with early release dates.
As it stands, the release timeline is six months. It doesn't correspond with the application to school or with the commencement of classes. This should be extended to 12 months, with a nine-month vocational rehab to be used at the beginning of school or at the end of it, according to the member's wishes.
The SISIP LTD VAC rehab program is a 24-month program where CAF members are able to return to school with the option to leave six months earlier to begin school in their vocational rehab. One of the most important rules is that a CAF member must finish what they start—as in, the program of school—which limits veterans to only obtaining a diploma. In the few months that I've searched for employment, the majority of public service positions have required a degree. As alluded to by this committee, veterans are seeking more than entry-level positions, but they are unavailable to due to the lack of education.
The education and training benefit that VAC came to speak to you about does have its limitations. A member cannot be on the VAC rehab program while applying for the education training benefit, which results in the loss of the 15% top-up in pay. It used be called the earnings loss benefit, but they've renamed it with the new rollout of benefits. You also lose the support of your case manager from VAC. You lose medical benefits as a result of that, too.
The service number that we're issued in the Canadian Forces should act as our federal employee number, like the PRI number. This would enable us to apply for public sector positions while we plan our departure from DND. Also, security clearance should not disappear the day you leave the forces. These two changes would greatly expedite the hiring process and give hiring managers the ability to fill vacant positions much more quickly.
I was able to secure a position with VAC in my hometown as part of a field placement with the college program I attended. I saw the biases that employees have towards veterans first-hand when I was asked—repeatedly and by numerous individuals—why I wasn't messed up like the rest of them, or how I had come out so normal. Simply walking into a VAC office and being greeted by two-inch, bomb-proof glass sets a tone for every veteran walking into each location. At times, staff appear nervous and unsure of how to approach some members upon their entry into the office, therefore leaving those members not fully supported. The bias is that veterans are unstable, crazy and ready to explode at any moment. This came from the department tasked with aiding veterans. I can only imagine what the rest of them think about us.
Colleges and universities already have prior learning assessment and recognition—PLAR, for short—but the burden is placed on the member to provide all supporting documents, which we get in course reports throughout our career. To ask a veteran to save things for 20 of 30 years is a little ridiculous.
Some provinces are beginning to recognize the military driver's licence as an equivalent, allowing these qualified members to simply provide the appropriate documentation and be given the corresponding class of civilian driver's licence.
It has appeared to me that this committee is trying to find an easy fix to the problem—a one-size-fits-all approach—but that can't be done because every member who is leaving the military, whether it's voluntary or medical, has their own unique set of circumstances.
Thank you.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much.
Colleagues, we have approximately 30 minutes left before we have to go in camera for some committee business.
I'd like to suggest we go to five-minute rounds. That will allow us to have six interventions.
We'll start with Mr. Jowhari, for five minutes, please.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank the witnesses for their testimony and their service for our country. Thank you very much.
I'm going to start with Mr. Harrison.
Mr. Harrison, in your testimony you said you have opted out of the priority referral. You touched on why you made that decision, which was that you felt that your background, education and your experience of 34 years should stand on its own.
The government has put that priority referral program in place to help facilitate. Can you expand on why you chose not to?
As an Individual
I'll clarify that right away. I'm actually not entitled yet to have a priority referral, because I am going through my medical release. I'll be released on September 30. They will not give me my priority referral yet.
In my particular situation I'm a chief warrant officer. I'm a leader of men. With my diagnosis they put me right out, right out of play. They took me away from the leadership role. I've been in academic transition for a year and a half, because they really didn't know what to do with me. I've been doing my academic, trying to get up to speed in degrees, and I've been applying without my priority referral number. I've been applying as a veteran. I'm being allowed to apply as a veteran.
Certainly if I had the priority referral number, I would be using it.
As an Individual
However, saying that, I have so many skills. As a regimental sergeant major at the largest army battalion in Canada, I worked with generals and colonels, and I can't get an administrative services level 2 job? It baffles me.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
I asked the same question of a number of witnesses in prior sessions. What are your thoughts on being able to develop a list of experiences that our veterans have through their service, and being able to map them to certain public sector jobs, to say, if you have this experience, then it will map up to this type of service?
During that six months prior, once a notice is given, then the case manager could work to make sure that transition happens and you get into the pool. What are your thoughts on that?
As an Individual
It's a good idea. Our MOC, our occupation trades, have been trying to do that for a long time.
By trade, I was a supply technician, a logistician. However, when I got to chief warrant officer, I went to a totally different occupation. It's the chief warrant officer occupation. The only two trades that I know that are very transferable right now with Red Seal are our mechanics and our truckers, as I mentioned earlier.
If you were able to take a logistician and say, you can be in procurement, you can keep contracting, you can do administrative services, that would be fantastic. It would be helpful. It would help streamline the process and it would help give a little bit of levity to the veterans—knowing where they can go, left or right.
