Evidence of meeting #172 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was military.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Sergeant-at-Arms, Chairman of Voluntary Resources and Executive Committee Member, Branch 350, Royal Canadian Legion
Are you talking in reference to DND?
Sergeant-at-Arms, Chairman of Voluntary Resources and Executive Committee Member, Branch 350, Royal Canadian Legion
My situation is interesting. For me, personally, I'd rather go to the public sector when it has to do with housekeeping in DND affairs—for reference, medically releasing somebody.
In my situation, my boss was the top military police on base. That being said, he wanted me out. There was an assault causing bodily harm done by one of his subordinates. It was covered up, even though I had two witness statements and my impact statement. I suggest that he colluded with the medical authorities on base. I collected collateral information from documents that were, I suggest, systematically removed from my file, documents that show that I was an outstanding soldier. One of them was with regard to a medal that I received for doing the Nijmegen March, an 165-kilometre march overseas with weight on my back for four days. That was removed. It's no longer part of my file, but I kept copies of it.
The medical authority had the tenacity to say, “Apparently, Corporal Ticknor did well in his transcripts.” She had the clearance level to check my transcripts, but did not say, “Confirmed his transcripts with a GPA of 3.87 in police foundations.” She made it sound as if I was imagining it. I'm glad that you caught that one.
Also, her whole assessment was based on her attacking my relationship with my wife. We've been together for eight years now. She's working to get her Ph.D. at Brock, and I'm at Brock as well. She was a physiotherapist in Dubai when this was going on, and there's collateral information to prove that as well. She based all these assessments on “He says this”, “He claims this”, “His thinking is very rigid” or “It appears he has thought disorder, delusional disorder.”
When she finally found out that my wife was bona fide legit, she changed the argument and immediately said, “He has religious delusions.” She then said that I failed the chaplain school. I received a letter that was permanently removed from my military file from the head of the chaplain school, who is actually an expert in religious affairs, not a layman in the matter. His appreciation letter I have—this collateral information—to prove the dishonesty.
Sergeant-at-Arms, Chairman of Voluntary Resources and Executive Committee Member, Branch 350, Royal Canadian Legion
With that being said, he said that my judgment is impeccable and that I can be counted upon off and on duty to act professionally, as I'd been doing throughout the entire course. I served in the office as general staff member for the officers' course, and I have much more collateral information. I went off base for a second opinion from a higher-ranking professional on September 4, 2014—
Conservative
Sergeant-at-Arms, Chairman of Voluntary Resources and Executive Committee Member, Branch 350, Royal Canadian Legion
—and that professional said that there's nothing wrong with me. They avoided that second opinion. They didn't—
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Mr. Ticknor, I find this testimony fascinating, but unfortunately, only because we have a shortness of time here—and I apologize greatly—we're going to have to go into our next round of questioning.
Mr. MacGregor—unless he wants to take up on the subsequent question that Mr. Deltell had started—has seven minutes.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you very much to all of you for appearing today and providing us with your opening statements.
Mr. Grant, you talked in your opening statement about the three different cultures at play—DND, VAC and the Public Service Commission of Canada.
My father served when I was very young. I spent three years of my life living in Lahr, West Germany—from 1982 to 1985. It was a pretty amazing experience. I come from a riding that is basically a stone's throw away from CFB Esquimalt, so I have a lot of active serving personnel in my riding and also a lot of veterans because the climate on Vancouver Island is pretty agreeable.
I'm sure you'll agree with that, Mr. Hewitt.
I've grown up with that, but in my adult life.... I don't think many of us get to experience what the military culture is all about. I had an amazing experience in 2017 when the Royal Canadian Navy invited parliamentarians onto the base to go on board one of our frigates. I went on board HMCS Vancouver. They took us for a three-day trip out to the western test-firing ranges. We got to see every aspect of how that ship works, how the entire crew works together as a team and all of the skills that are on display in making that ship operational every second of the day.
I think that I can speak for all of my colleagues who were on that trip together when I say that we walked away with a very different understanding, but a very beneficial understanding, of just how it all works. I know that there was reference made to the fact that human resources specialists and managers of VIA Rail spent a day in military training.
I'm just wondering if the three of you could provide some feedback on whether that kind of experience might be beneficial for people in the Public Service Commission to find out a little bit more about the military culture and also to see first-hand the leadership training that's on display—you know, the fact that you have to be able to think fast in certain situations to make those decisions quickly.
As an Individual
There is actually an excellent program. It's called the Canadian Forces liaison council. They'll bring nominated bosses to army bases, to air force bases, onto ships. The reasoning behind that is, if the employer—and it's for reservists—understands what these reservists do for their country and the skills they gain by their military experience and their military training, and they bring all of that back to their workplace, it's a win for them.
I don't know of any soldiers, sailors or airmen who wouldn't be proud to showcase what they do.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Mr. Ticknor, Mr. Hewitt, do you have anything to add?
As an Individual
I'm not a sadist, but to put an HR person into an infantry trench for a few days, I think, would alter her life path.
I think she would think a little differently when.... There's a disconnect. To steel man their argument, they're trying to keep Canada as efficient as possible. Putting me in there is bringing down the efficiency, so how can we not lower the bar but just teach us and show us the rungs? Just show us the rungs, at least, at the bare minimum. We don't want to lower the standard. We're guilty. We understand that. We're not trained in that and we get it. We know where they're coming from.
Sergeant-at-Arms, Chairman of Voluntary Resources and Executive Committee Member, Branch 350, Royal Canadian Legion
In reference to there being structured organizations out there that are designed to restructure an individual to their skill sets transferable from the military to the public service, I also suggest that those organizations—or a branch-off from that organization—review any exigent circumstances that may have or have not been present in an unlawful release from the Canadian Armed Forces, if that individual is willing to submit important and relevant collateral information that can disprove or prove so.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
You've made mention of the experiences you've had. I think it's quite evident, from what I saw during my experience, that leadership skills are on display, as well as the ability to work in a team and the ability to also act quickly when the situation requires it.
In your experience, did those general skill sets count for something, or were they trying to make you fit into some very narrow definition when you were trying to get into the public service?
Sergeant-at-Arms, Chairman of Voluntary Resources and Executive Committee Member, Branch 350, Royal Canadian Legion
To go along directly with what you're saying and not advocating the case and how I've been unjustified.... With that being said, going online and reviewing different applications, I found it said that it had an equivalency for a university degree, which I'm not finished despite the fact that I have a GPA at 3.87 in police foundations and I graduated top of the class out of 140 police foundations graduates.
They wanted me to provide collateral information on leadership skills. I supplied that information of my leadership skills, where I was a lead hand responder, 55 people, in the automotive industry, building the Lincoln MKX, the Ford Flex and the Ford Edge for three years, doing sub-assembly for Ford Motor Canada—working for Automodular. There was no way that I could actually submit collateral information such as a reference letter to prove that. My leadership skills were not deemed transferable. I found that was an issue, to specifically answer your question on that.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Mr. Grant, here's the final question. You made reference to the three departments and that there is no memorandum of understanding, but we do have the VPSU in operation since 2017. Ultimately I think this committee wants to make some substantive recommendations to the government for what can be improved.
Do we need someone at the very top coordinating all three, or is the VPSU at that mid-level integrating them well? Is there anything further you can add?
As an Individual
Right now, General Natynczyk has said to get on with it, and VAC has taken a leadership role. I'm just concerned about what happens when he leaves Veterans Affairs and whether that same sort of focus on that.... It's a complex space filled with good people, but yes.
Conservative
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you all for being here.
I think I'd like to pick up on Mr. MacGregor's question about the three departments, because I actually took note of all this alphabet soup that you were throwing at us.
Mr. Hewitt's comment about VAC being an insurance company really threw me. Is that a literal or a figurative statement?
As an Individual
You'd have to ask the doctors. I phoned Veterans Affairs advocacy and I asked the lawyer's office, “What do I say? How do I compel them to get me evidence for you?” They wouldn't answer the question, so I don't know.
Liberal
As an Individual
Can I circle back to the first part of your question?
The Public Service Commission owns the Public Service Employment Act, and that was amended by the Veterans Hiring Act. When I said that they're all about transparency and fairness, they are. They want the staffing of the public service to be crystal clear.
There was some talk in prior panels about setting quotas. I would suggest that the public service would cringe at the use of the word “quota”, so what I would recommended is having the deputy ministers in Transport Canada and the Coast Guard look at this. They have jobs where there's a pretty good correlation between military skills and civilian skills.
They can say, “Veteran hiring is important for the Government of Canada. What does it make sense for my department to have as a complement of veterans?” and then set that aspirational goal. I think the Public Service Commission would be happier with an aspirational goal set by a deputy minister than hard quotas. That's the department saying, “We've looked at what we do and we think that this is what we should strive for.”
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC
It makes sense that you recommend that. I like the example you gave of VIA Rail and how the president asks for accountability on why the hiring was not done. Not when it was done, but why the veteran did not fit whatever position. I think it's important that managers are held accountable for not hiring. That was the example you gave, wasn't it?
