Government Operations Committee on Sept. 19th, 2016

[Raj Grewal, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Is that every time? Let's say I haven't been paid for six months, or four months, or something like that. Can I call every week and say, “I have an emergency, I need pay”?

[Marie Lemay]

Yes. I hope your case will be resolved so that you don't have to do that, but yes.

[Raj Grewal, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Fair enough—

[Marie Lemay]

I would say on top of that, though, that we added a layer with the feedback form, so that people who wouldn't be able to get through to their departments and didn't know where to go could actually fill out the feedback form. We've committed to working with their departments to make sure they get that. We added this extra measure to make sure that people would have access to that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you, Madame Lemay.

Mr. Blaney, you have the floor.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Lemay, I have here a January memo concerning the implementation of the new Phoenix pay system. This memo mentioned that the system was to be replaced. I will read the most important excerpt. In fact, you made some comments on this when you attended the emergency meeting. The memo reads as follows:

Staff at the pay centre have received training and the Phoenix project team's resources will be on site in Miramichi to assist during the implementation, including to address any system-related issues that may arise.

That was on January 20, 2016. However, you are telling us today that things did not work out at all.

Can you explain how you realized that there was a major problem and that you were going to hit a wall? I remind you once again that both the union and the consultants had advised us of that. In addition, internal memos were circulated about this.

That said, I'd like to go back to the training.

How can you guarantee us that by the end of October the situation will have stabilized?

[Marie Lemay]

First of all, I want to specify that the situation will not have stabilized by the end of the month.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

I was talking about the end of October.

[Marie Lemay]

No. On October 31, we will have dealt with all of the cases in the backlog. Afterwards, we will work with the teams in Miramichi and with the people in our satellite units so as to establish a stable situation. When that has been accomplished, we will be able to see how many people we will need. There will have to be a transition period between the two. On November 1, certain transactions will be late, but we will have 200 people.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

However, you will have eliminated the backlog. In order to do this, you are offering additional training, as you mentioned. We are talking about $16 million.

As my colleague has just joined us, I want to inform him that the projected cost for the system is now $50 million.

With regard to training, could you tell us how this money is being invested and how you are going to obtain results?

[Marie Lemay]

In fact, a lot of training had been planned before the implementation, but clearly it was not sufficient, nor was it exactly what we needed. As I said previously, we underestimated the management of change and the scope of that change for the users.

There are the users, the human resources people, and the compensation advisors. Three different types of training were required. We offered on-site training to the compensation advisors. By talking to them and discussing things, we quickly realized that we had to offer additional and different training.

As for the users, we are working with the Canada School of Public Service in order to prepare courses that are a little easier than the ones that exist.

As for the human resources people, our teams are going into the departments to talk about the three priority issues.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Lemay.

I will share my time with Mr. McCauley, who has a question regarding the partner with which you've been implementing the system.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Mr. Liddy, you mentioned earlier that there was just one outside party involved with the program. Is that correct?

[Gavin Liddy]

Yes, we hired—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

What do you consider IBM or PwC or these types of companies?

[Gavin Liddy]

In terms of a role of a third-party independent review, it was S.i. consultants.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I asked, and the question was specific, were there any other consultants that warned you, “Do not go ahead”?

[Gavin Liddy]

No.

We had discussions with IBM in May after we found defects, and they didn't say “don't go ahead”. We asked, “How long will it take you to resolve?” and “Do you need to delay?”

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

So for none of the other consultants, however you term them, third party or whatever, no one advised you “don't go ahead”?

[Gavin Liddy]

No, not to my knowledge.

I don't know, Brigitte, if you have knowledge.

[Brigitte Fortin]

No.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Is that not to your knowledge or a “no, it's definite”? Can you maybe get back to us if it's not a “no definite”?

[Gavin Liddy]

I can get back to you, yes. I was following the project very closely starting in May 2015, so I'd be very surprised.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you.

Our final five-minute intervention will be with Madam Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Madam Lemay and Mr. Liddy, I think you were here when my colleague asked a question about what a steady state would look like, and that's what I want to tackle a little bit more. There was the question about what the rate of overpayment and underpayment was as part of the long-standing payroll problems that could exist under any payroll system and what we expect that to look like in the future steady state scenario. Further to that, I would like to know what steady state will look like at the Miramichi pay centre, the number of cases that employees will be able to handle per day, and whether the additional full-time advisers that have been hired will be staying on. I realize you won't have all the answers, but we want to have an idea of what that steady state will look like.