Government Operations Committee on Sept. 19th, 2016

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

If the impact was underestimated, Minister, are we expecting then that the steady state number of employees in Miramichi will be higher than its current complement in order to maintain the quality service that we ultimately will come to expect from Phoenix when it achieves its potential?

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

That may very well happen. I certainly am not ruling that out. What I am saying is that in terms of the 200 to 250 additional employees we've hired to help with the backlog and to help the employees at Miramichi, we're going to have to look at the numbers. We have 590 in Miramichi, so in the other four pay hubs, altogether there will be 250 by the time we're finished.

Does that mean that once we reach steady state, if we're able to determine we don't need the additional 250...? That may very well speak for itself and say that if we can, with the training we're doing now and the experience that the employees at Miramichi are getting as a result of this, they will be able to become much more efficient, again, working with the cases they have now. Maybe we won't need additional employees. But until we're at a position where we can feel comfortable that the employees in Miramichi are able to do the job expected of them, given the proper resources to do the job, then we're going to hold on to the 250, because we want to make sure that we fix the problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. McCauley, for five minutes, please. I'll try to catch your eye and let you know when there are two minutes left in your intervention.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thank you.

Minister, I want to get back to a point we brought up in July at the emergency meeting. It was about the bonuses. We asked, and there were no bonuses paid last year. I have to ask you this. This is nothing but a debacle, a fiasco, or whatever term you want to use for it, with $50 million of taxpayers' money wasted and countless, tens of thousands of public civil servants affected by this, and yet you're still entertaining paying out bonuses to the people who brought this disaster.

How is that possible? Why can you not just say right now, “I'm making it a focus, and we will not pay a penny of bonuses to anyone involved in this program”? I'm flabbergasted as to why you sit there and say it's not your focus. With $50 million wasted and tens of thousands of public servants hurt, it's not your focus.

We would like to hear right now that you're not going to do that.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

It is not my focus. I have not even had a discussion in terms of paying out bonuses. I am focused on making sure—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I would ask right now that you state, for the record, that you will not pay bonuses to anyone involved in this fiasco. Why not?

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

You know, I am not even versed in how the public service gets paid bonuses, because that is not where my head has been. That has not been the discussion we've had. It's been “let's fix the problem”. If the deputy can speak to where we are with bonuses, by all means, but from my perspective, as the minister responsible for fixing this problem, that's where my focus has been and continues to be.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

It's great that we're fixing it. I would suggest, though, that you take a look around the country and get feedback. I don't think there's a lot of will to be paying out bonuses to people who squandered $50 million of taxpayers' money.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

I'm not sitting here telling you that I'm interested in paying out bonuses; I'm sitting here telling you that that's not at all where my focus is.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thank you.

Let me move on just quickly. We've heard partisan, non-partisan, or however you wish to term it badmouthing or blaming of the previous government for Phoenix. On March 10 you yourself stated that Phoenix was an “example of innovation...and the future...of government operations” and that it had “proven to be a success.” On May 17, you said it was absolutely a good idea to move to Phoenix.

How do you reconcile making those glowing remarks about Phoenix with sitting here today blaming everything on the previous government? Is it the disaster and worrisome as you're saying, or is it a success, as you said?

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

I don't want to be in the blame game with this, but the realities are the realities. They are what they are in that Phoenix was an initiative of the previous government, and the previous government—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

If I may interrupt for a second, blaming the previous government is like taking home a nice steak from the butcher and then burning it and blaming the butcher. You yourself stated that it was an example of the future of government operations, that it was a success.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

It can be.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Perhaps Hansard had your comments wrong.

How do you sit here...? I'm curious. You stated all along that no one advised you not to press the button to go ahead with Phoenix, even though in January we heard PSAC saying not to do this. We've also heard recently that consultants at the very beginning of the project, I understand, wrote to your department and said, “It's not ready. Don't go ahead.”

Why did we go ahead and start this?

We heard from the staff, from the ground level, from the union, and from the consultants who all said, “Don't do this.”

It's not as though it was May; it wasn't as though it was part two and we were saying “Don't go ahead.”

In part one they said, “Don't do this”, and yet we still did.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

As the minister responsible, I was told we were in a ready-to-go state, that Phoenix was ready to go.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

But the consultants who were implementing this program, I understand, told your department not to go ahead.

Is that true?

[Marie Lemay]

I'll make sure that Gavin gives you the background on the consultant and the leading up to...but what is very clear is that we did recommend to the minister that it was ready to go.

With all the information we had, with the consultants, with the third party, with all the testing—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Are you saying that the consultants said to go ahead?

[Marie Lemay]

Well, one of the....

Can I let you go with this, Gavin?

[Gavin Liddy]

We did have an independent third party review as part of the Treasury Board process for monitoring projects. It's a gated process that has checks at every step. Gate 6 was the final step before we went live.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Can I ask you, Mr. Liddy, who the third party was?

[Gavin Liddy]

The third party was S.i. Systems.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Did any other third parties that were involved in this program tell you not to go ahead?

[Gavin Liddy]

That was the only third party we had on the project. I know Treasury Board Secretariat had its own.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

No other consultants were working on the implementation of Phoenix.