Government Operations Committee on Sept. 26th, 2016

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you.

Ms. Trudel, you have the floor for seven minutes.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you for your presentations, which I appreciated. I myself have received an enormous number of complaints from both seniors and persons with reduced mobility in my region, Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean. I really do understand what you explained to us this morning. I myself have heard of people who take taxis to pick up their mail because they are unable to travel otherwise. There have been a number of complaints about snow removal and safety. You spoke about the fear of being followed, for example.

My question concerns delivery. You have just learned that some people might get service once a week, but that would require a letter from a doctor and would apply only to persons with a previously recognized disability. However, we should not forget seniors. In my constituency, there are people 85 and 90 years of age who still live at home and who are independent, but, as a result of the winters we have in Quebec and elsewhere in Canada, black ice presents a danger. Consequently, it may be difficult for them to go and pick up their mail.

The task force that submitted the report noted that its members consider themselves as seniors in good condition who are able to go and pick up their mail. Personally, I am still concerned about our aging population.

Do you believe that Canada Post should adapt and not limit this service to persons with reduced mobility—which is very important—but offer it as well to our seniors and that it should adopt a more open position? I would like to hear what you all have to say on the subject, Mr. Defour, Ms. Pelletier, and Mr. Lavigne.

[Richard Lavigne]

First, I would like to tell you that, according to Statistics Canada—we are not the ones saying this—one in three Canadians suffers from limitations. Not all those limitations are serious, but when it is -20 degrees celsius and the ground is covered with ice, that 33% represents a lot of people. This is not a trivial matter. This is not unimportant. I think we have to make arrangements in this case.

With regard to this medical certificate, we feel as though we always have to "bare all" before an official in order to obtain a postal service. It looks very complicated. Some people are quite independent, but things are different when they find themselves in aggravating circumstances. This is what we call "creating disability situations." I think that having to go and pick up one's mail from a mailbox may potentially be very dangerous for seniors in particular. So there will be consequences if we all have to go and see our doctor and get a medical certificate. There are costs associated with that; there are citizens who pay for that. There is also the problem of waiting lists in order to meet a physician.

[Ruth Pelletier]

I would like to add that I don't think once a week is sufficient, and timing of cheques is very important.

Fortunately a lot of people do the direct deposit, but we still have people 80-plus who are very hesitant to do online banking and very concerned about direct deposit, so we have them to worry about.

But equally important is this. Not only is it mail, but this also applies to online shipping. In the community mailboxes there is a section where parcels can be put and you can go to pick them up. If that parcel is too big to fit in there, there is a slip put in your mailbox. You have to go to a satellite post office to get it, so you're going even further. It's an additional burden, an additional cost, and an inconvenience.

We have to stop and think. You know, it's nice to have dialogue, and to try to find solutions, and let's make it simple; we're going to pacify the seniors and the handicapped and the mentally challenged, and we're going to keep Canada Post pacified. But the demographics are changing. They're going to increase and their needs are going to increase, so we'd better all sit back and take a look, when we're analyzing and putting proposals forward, and keep that in mind. In the next seven to ten years, half of our population will be seniors. If we want them falling and breaking hips on black ice, and tripping and whatnot, or if we want violence increasing and limited job opportunities, we're going down the right road. But if we want to prevent some of these costs to society, then we have to implement something that will be very worthwhile and that will have a better impact for a longer period of time.

[Andrew DeFour]

I'd like to chime in for a second.

There is a grey area in terms of seniors. There are seniors who are not at the stage of either dementia or Alzheimer's; they haven't been diagnosed. Whatever system that we put in place, we have to keep in mind that they are still functioning the way they normally function, except they do have some cognitive disabilities. Sometimes that's not recognized, especially with the telephone system we have in place now with Canada Post. Even if a senior who has onset of dementia does make contact, they will have a challenge in communicating and getting the services they need.

In our policy prescriptions, we have to think hard on how we address this issue as a result of the fact that they've been used to having this service, and as Canadian taxpayers they should be due to have this service that meets their needs.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

My next question is for Mr. Ratnani.

Earlier we considered the subject of increased parcel rates. The current system is universal, but permits deliveries everywhere. We mentioned Purolator, but it does not deliver to certain municipalities. Canada Post goes there when the distance that must be travelled reaches a certain number of kilometers.

The report states that rates must be increased. I would like to know what impact that might have on your company.

[Hicham Ratnani]

Rate increases are something we have always studied. The reality is that you have to stay competitive. In fact, I consider it normal for certain rates to increase. However, they must be increased in a reasonable way. Inflation also plays a role every year. I think it is normal for certain adjustments to be made. However, it must be done sensibly and gradually and should not hurt business in general.

We ship parcels to far northern Quebec. Some people are very well dressed in Nunavut. Some make purchases from Frank + Oak. If we ship a parcel via UPS or FedEx, they hand the box over to Canada Post. An improvement is needed, but I do not know the right method to use in these circumstances.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Whalen for seven minutes, please.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for coming here today. I have a couple of different sets of questions, so hopefully we can be quick in our answers.

One of the mandates of government policy creation that comes out of the good work of the ministry of the Status of Women is that we should be engaged in gender-based analysis plus, which not only looks at the differences between men and women, but also age categories, levels of physical ability, and other identifiable factors within our community. I'm glad you're all able to come here today to help us and to speak with us about this.

Do any of your groups have any particular data related to assaults, or harm, or accidents occurring, and the differences between urban areas where we have door-to-door delivery still, versus the 75% of areas in the country where people have to go to the community mailboxes? Do any of your groups have any hard data on that? Have you collected it?

[Carmela Hutchison]

We don't get a lot of data funding and data collection. Probably the only really half-decent study is the StatsCan one on criminal victimization. It has disability embedded within that. That's the only study that exists out there, and it doesn't point specifically at....

I have a few little scraps—this little article about a box that was vandalized, or this little article about somebody who was assaulted at a box—but they're just little pieces.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

It is somewhat unfortunate if we have this policy directive, and at the same we don't have the data collection to help us make the decisions. It makes it difficult.

[Carmela Hutchison]

Yes, and it's hard to monitor. It really is. We don't get the funding for it either, and everything we do is off the side of our desk.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

In terms of delivery models that might get us away from a need to prove disability to the postal service and be entitled to it, would your groups be open to something like paying more for door-to-door delivery, where you get it back in terms of tax rebate, or some other type of model whereby people who want to pay more for a higher level of service can acquire it, and then people who are entitled to it on another basis would then get those funds back? Is that something your groups would be interested in?

Maybe we can start with Ms. Pelletier and then move to Mr. Lavigne.

[Ruth Pelletier]

I would express concern, because we have a good number of seniors who are living practically below the poverty level. We're trying to encourage them all to apply for the GIS, because it isn't automatic. So that would be a hardship.

There is a belief among Canadians that mail is a right, and it's something that's always been there. Back in the days when we didn't have vehicles and electricity, we counted on our mail delivery through rain, snow, sleet, and hail. We got it. There is a sector of society that feels it should still be coming, and why should they have to pay a premium?

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

It is a part of our Canadianness.

Mr. Lavigne.

[Richard Lavigne]

As far as we are concerned, first, it would be unacceptable to have to pay more for a service because you have functional limitations. It is a recognized principle that a limitation should mean you pay as little as possible.

Second, the vast majority of people we represent live below the poverty line, and, to be able to obtain tax credits, first, you unfortunately have to pay taxes. In our view, the concept of a non-refundable tax credit, as opposed to a refundable tax credit, presents a number of stumbling blocks. Other arrangements may be proposed than overbilling people for a service because they share a particular characteristic. That is unacceptable in our world.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you very much for your answers. It's important for me to ask those questions and get those answers into the record.

This operates as a good segue to you, Mr. Ratnani. We've heard different things today from what we heard in Ottawa. When we look at our task force report, it really looks at a contraction of the services offered by Canada Post, yet today we've heard a number of people talk about expansions of the service, new ways to deliver the service, weekend deliveries, nighttime deliveries, and the failure to do that might actually lead to other competition arising.

My question for you, Mr. Ratnani, is twofold. Is there a business opportunity for Canada Post to expand its package delivery service to thereby take advantage of this transformation in the marketplace? If that opportunity exists, should we maybe have a regulator in place instead that would allow private companies to have to deliver to particular service levels, meet particular area requirements, so that if they want to participate in this market they must also go to rural Canada? How would that affect your business? I think it would be a good proxy for how it would affect future business in Canada.

[Hicham Ratnani]

I would say on the first question, regarding service levels, there is no doubt that there is a massive opportunity to do that. With the Delivered Tonight service, we actually deliver on the weekends, and it delights our customers. When customers are delighted, they will buy more and therefore give more money to a Canadian company.

I think there is an interesting opportunity. You have other carriers that are trying to innovate. No one has been able to do the service level that Canada Post is doing. I actually think we should do more of it. I like the suggestion that one of my colleagues had, that we could offer employment opportunities for people over the weekends or at night. I think this is very interesting. I think Canada Post already charges extra for this sort of service, but there is a way to optimize all that so that it makes sense for businesses today and tomorrow.

With regard to your second question, I think it's an interesting point. The question is, do we want the market for post to be regulated or not? I think that's a question for you fine folks. For example, as I said earlier, UPS and FedEx will give packages to Canada Post to be shipped in rural Canada and will charge extra for it. What are the right conditions for that? If I compare it to the U.S., there are extra fees to ship packages with, let's say, FedEx or UPS in Hawaii or Puerto Rico, or all those places, whereas with USPS, they have different tariffs. I think there is a way to optimize the entire shipping grid for everyone.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Ratnani.

I'd like to add that I think Canada Post is really a part of what it means to be Canadian for people, and for any changes we make to the service, we value the input you have given us on it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much, Mr. Whalen.

We'll go to our last two interventions, which will be five minutes in total.

Mr. Gourde, you have the floor.

You have five minutes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also think that people with reduced mobility, regardless of their age—we talked about older persons, but people can be 30 years old and have real mobility problems—should have access to their mail. Unfortunately, there is no home delivery in my constituency, except in the rural areas. However, for a person with reduced mobility who finds himself 200 metres from his house, and 50-tonne mastodons are passing by 1.3 metres from the public thoroughfare, I can tell you that is no safer than getting to a mailbox.

I was pleased to learn this morning that Canada Post was offering a service to those individuals. I am going to check and see whether we are entitled to the same services in my constituency in view of the fact that we do not have home delivery.

On the other hand, Mr. Lavigne mentioned other possibilities. I believe Canada Post will be expanding the service, but if it is offered more than once a week, the corporation will charge higher rates. Perhaps the mail could be delivered every day in exchange for a sum of money. I do not know whether that is the direction that will be taken.

Mr. Lavigne, you mentioned other ways of helping these people, rather than increasing rates. Other solutions must be found. You did not finish what you started to say earlier. I would like you to say more about that, please.

[Richard Lavigne]

They say the postal organizations in certain countries offer other services to the public, such as the delivery of pharmaceutical products. Some pharmacies and grocery stores, for example, must deliver their products to their customers. Other services might enable Canada Post to enter into agreements that would help it balance its budget.

That might also provide more hours of work for employees who make the deliveries. This is an idea that I am throwing out there. I have not examined the matter. What concerns us is that the corporation first considers abolishing services before looking for solutions.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Pharmacists already provide drug delivery service in rural areas. In my constituency, at least, that service is very well covered by the pharmacies. When you go to the doctor, for example, the pharmacy takes over. Some grocery stores offered delivery service, but that practice has virtually been abandoned.

I think that will be a major challenge. Thank you for your testimony. It is really important that we be able to emphasize, in our report, how important it is for Canada Post to take into consideration what people in your situation experience. The corporation will have to take the time to reflect.

Approximately 95% of the population of Canada are, to varying degrees, capable of going to pick up their mail. There will always be the remaining five per cent. Within the next 20 years, the demographic situation will leave us no choice. It may have changed by 2050, but we will undoubtedly not be here to see. Postal service must be provided to the public for at least the next 30 years. In conclusion, I want to thank you. Your testimony this morning will be very useful for the future.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

We go to our final intervention.

You have five minutes, Ms. Ratansi.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all for being here. You have changed the conversation, actually.

Madam Pelletier changed the conversation from a purely financial prospect to a social prospect. Nobody looks at the flip side of the coin. I thank you all for being here.

I used to be the chair of the Standing Committee on the Status of Women. I appreciate your insight into the disability, into the violence; people don't realize it. You made us realize that the postal worker is really a social service person. He or she is there, communicating. There's isolation within the senior population, with the disabled population. That's what the corporation forgot to look at.

We had people from the labour union saying that for 14 years it was working perfectly. Suddenly, a change in management came about and that management decided, maybe, that it would take this route to privatize it, and we don't even know what their thought process was. I'm so glad you're all here, doing this.

I'm so glad, Mr. Ratnani, for your insight. The Canada Post workers tell us they believe in the corporation, but the corporation management doesn't believe in it. How do we match the two?

We're thankful that we were able to get you guys here. We're thankful that we stopped the five-point plan right in its centre, because it is not looking at the other population needs.

I have a specific question. I think the comment by Mr. Lavigne was that Canada Post told us that they will do accommodations, accommodation for people with disabilities, accommodation for people who are seniors, etc. But you tell me it's difficult for you to get an accommodation letter. How is Canada Post going to notify seniors unless they are living in a senior building? How do they notify people with disabilities? Do you have any idea? Could you give us your thinking on that?