Pardon?
Evidence of meeting #28 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was post.
Evidence of meeting #28 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was post.
10:15 a.m.
National Director, Metro-Montréal, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
It's actually amazing that they took the numbers, because the history of the numbers doesn't add up to what they put forward, even for this year. How do you arrive in your forecast at a $63-million loss for this year, when the first two quarters are the best ever since 2010? I mean, we can predict high profits for this year.
Basically, from what I understand—I am not an economist—they took the numbers that were given to them and put them into the report, because history tells us otherwise.
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON
No, I am not talking about Canada Post giving them the numbers. The task force told us that they had Ernst & Young, an accounting firm, a reputable firm, do a due diligence audit, and that's where they came up with the numbers. Yes, they matched exactly what Canada Post had; so you have some concerns about the numbers, and we will make a note of it. Okay.
Monsieur Perez and Monsieur Demers, when you look at the sustainability, Canada Post is a requirement. Canada Post's job is to deliver mail and it's in the business of logistics. How do you see Canada Post maintaining its service when it claims that mail delivery is at a decline and it's making them lose money? What would you like to see? Would you agree to one of the recommendations of the task force that the mail be delivered every three days or every two days, that some of the communities that are new communities have community mailboxes? What would you say?
10:15 a.m.
Mayor, City of Laval
Well, that was one of our suggestions.
The first thing that must be determined is whether mail delivery is an essential service for a society. If the answer is yes, then we must accept responsibility for it.
Furthermore, if Canada Post makes a decision that has economic consequences for another level of government, such as the municipalities, that must obviously be part of the equation. The same citizens will ultimately pay for the service. They will merely be paying in another way, in the form of municipal taxes, higher postal rates, or a subsidy.
Obviously, our mandate was not to go that far in our thinking. We took it for granted that this is an essential service, particularly for seniors who may have difficulties. We agree that mailboxes may be installed in new neighbourhoods, but, in established areas, you have to think of service to the public and adapt to its needs, while meeting traffic and safety criteria.
10:15 a.m.
City Councillor, Member of the Executive Committee, City of Montreal
To add to that, yes, it is a service where it has to maintain financial sustainability, but it also has certain obligations of levels of service. This is in the Canada Post act. I'll refer to paragraph 5(2)(b), which clearly indicates that it has to offer a certain level of service according to the area, whether it's rural or a city.
It has a monopoly. We can't give it a monopoly and expect it not to have the ability to give a certain level of service. Otherwise, what we should be talking about is the privatization of Canada Post. If we want to reduce it to a cookie-cutter fashion and make sure it's ultra-profitable, then that's a whole different consultation and discussion that we should have.
The other thing I would point out is that how we determine financial viability will depend on numerous factors. You're an accountant; you understand that anybody can play with numbers. I'll give you an example. Let's look at the economies of scale they have in an urban area, and let's look at their cost and profit in an urban area. That will be interesting to look at, whether that can justify home delivery in an urban area. Could we look at, as Mr. Demers mentioned, the indirect cost? Why should cities be paying for the maintenance, graffiti removal, and snow removal for community mailboxes?
I will point out that there's a fundamental difference in terms of the numbers between the working group and the Conference Board report regarding alternate-day services. We think it is a solution. I know they talk about $74 million. The Conference Board was talking about $350 million a year by 2020. These are the types of things we should be looking at.
Yes, there has to be an evolution. Yes, there has to be a change. But within a certain framework it can be done and should be done.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Yes, your speaking time is up.
Mr. Gourde, you have five minutes.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I will be speaking to you, Mr. Lapointe.
I was pleased to hear you discuss the possibility of extending business hours, even on Saturdays, so you could make direct contact with consumers.
People my age who work leave home at 7:00 a.m. and return at 6:00 p.m. I live in a rural area and the post office's business hours are from 9:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. Unless we are at home on sick leave once or twice a year, we do not have a lot of opportunity to go to the post office and do our business. Canada Post has missed a lot of opportunities to provide services. People have opted for other services.
You said that extending business hours would help sharply increase Canada Post's profitability. Can you give us a percentage?
10:20 a.m.
National Director, Metro-Montréal, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
Earlier I talked about parcel delivery on weekends, mornings, and evenings.
With regard to business hours, it is important to note that, in 2003, the union allowed Canada Post to use part-time staff at postal outlets, precisely in order to extend business hours into evenings and weekends. Canada Post decided not to offer that option.
Canada Post operates the other way around. It sells franchises and then employs the strangulation principle. It opens franchises and sends its commercial clientele to them, as a result of which traffic at the corporate postal outlet declines. It justifies cutting business hours by saying that those franchises have extended hours. In the end, it closes post offices. That is the approach it has used for the past 25 or 30 years, but it has done so increasingly in recent years.
CUPW is extremely open. There is a pilot project at Richmond Hill, in the Toronto area, where a post office is open evenings and weekends. Our union is very much in favour of this kind of Canada Post business. We are ready to work evenings and weekends, that is to say seven days a week.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
In your negotiations with Canada Post, you say it would be possible to reduce morning hours and to open, say, at noon or 1:00 p.m. If I understand correctly, that might be feasible. That measure should be introduced since, at some point, it will be the only way to ensure you have a relationship with the clientele. Otherwise, Canada Post will disappear from the landscape in many regions of Canada because business hours do not meet customers' needs.
10:20 a.m.
National Director, Metro-Montréal, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
You are absolutely right: for years, CUPW has been suggesting that Canada Post extend business hours so that the public can go to post offices. The corporation has persisted and still claims that it is day customers who will go to the post office in the evening, which is false. Customers go to the post office to the extent that business hours suit their schedules. The collective agreement permits a change of working hours and resulting working conditions.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
10:20 a.m.
Former President, Canadian Union of Postal Workers, Metro-Montréal, As an Individual
I simply wanted to note that post offices were open until 6:00 p.m. a few years ago, in Montreal and probably across the country. We have never really understood why Canada Post decided to shorten the business hours of the postal outlets. We agree with you that they should be open when customers have the time to go there. It makes no sense to close them that 4:00 p.m.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
I understand in the case of Mr. Demers and Mr. Perez. In that of Mr. Demers, it may not be as bad because there is more space in Laval than there is in Montreal. The situation in Montreal is really complicated. For mailboxes, the price per square foot is very high in Montreal and certain regions, and there is virtually no available land.
Canada Post had considered the possibility of setting up in businesses. I do not believe it would go so far as to rent premises on which to set up its mailboxes because that would be too costly, but who knows? Canada Post could install clusters of 200 or 300 mailboxes at a location sheltered from inclement weather where customers could go and pick up their mail. Would any businesses be interested in investing in providing that service?
10:20 a.m.
City Councillor, Member of the Executive Committee, City of Montreal
I cannot answer that from an economic standpoint. The City of Montreal views the mail as an essential service, not a matter of facilitating a task. For example, Canada Post refused to deliver mail inside a new condominium project in the borough of Rosemont-La Petite-Patrie, even though the developer was prepared to install traditional mailboxes. That was during the so-called moratorium in 2016. If Canada Post refuses to deliver mail inside an apartment building, I find it hard to see why anyone would be interested in this as a so-called business venture. If, as we said, mail delivery is an essential service, we must maintain home delivery for reasons of citizen access and safety.
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Merci beaucoup.
Our final intervenor is Mr. Whalen for five minutes, please.
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank all the witnesses for their quite direct testimony.
I have just heard things that have not come to our ears in Ottawa. I just learned that there is a flagrant lack of cooperation between the governance of Canada Post, the municipalities, and the unions. I have also heard that there may be a lack of respect between Canada Post and the municipalities, as well as disinformation and budget estimates that are somewhat too conservative.
In the opinion of each of the groups here, has there been a loss of trust of Canada Post management in...? If we find a new vision and a path forward, do you have confidence that the current management of Canada Post is the appropriate group to execute on this new vision? Or do we need to change leadership at Canada Post? Is the relationship too far broken that we need new presidents and 22 new vice-presidents?
Perhaps we can start in the order we went in from the beginning.
10:25 a.m.
City Councillor, Member of the Executive Committee, City of Montreal
I think there has definitely been a breach of trust between the City of Montreal and Canada Post. This is not coming just before the supposed consultation prior to the five-point plan; it was non-existent. If you look at the original report, they're talking about putting a link on their website. They're talking about having very specific meetings. The City of Montreal and other cities were not consulted.
10:25 a.m.
City Councillor, Member of the Executive Committee, City of Montreal
And since then, it's only—
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
10:25 a.m.
Mayor, City of Laval
There has indeed been a breach of trust. I would remind you that the situation has deteriorated, culminating in court proceedings. To illustrate the situation somewhat, the City of Laval has more than 66,000 citizens over the age of 65. Those citizens have turned to the municipal administration in the absence of an agreement with Canada Post. The only option that was left to us—because that was not within our power—has become an election issue.