Government Operations Committee on Sept. 28th, 2016

[Susan Sitlington]

They're automatically putting in CMBs. Door-to-door delivery is taken right off the table.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

And is that a good thing or not?

[Susan Sitlington]

No, it's not a good thing because if you were to ask Canadians, they like their door-to-door delivery.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

We'll have to end it there.

Thank you all for your presentations and information that you provided us. Your recommendations have been very valuable as we continue on with our consultation tour.

We will suspend for a couple of minutes.

I would ask the next set of panellists to please approach the table as quickly as possible.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Ladies and gentlemen, we'll reconvene.

Thank you to our panellists for being here. I believe most of you, hopefully all of you, were in the room for most of the previous presentation. If you were, you'll know how the procedure works around here.

We'll ask each of you to offer a five-minute opening statement. Hopefully, you'll keep it to five or less. That would allow for a series of questions from our committee members. If we can do that, we should be able to conduct this session on time.

First, we have Mr. McNamara from the town of Tecumseh.

[Gary McNamara, Mayor, Town of Tecumseh]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the committee for being here this morning.

On behalf of the town and our residents, I would like to take this opportunity to express our collective concerns regarding Canada Post's placement of community mailboxes in our neighbourhoods.

The government needs to follow through with its election promise to restore door-to-door delivery to our communities. Many of our older neighbourhoods were never designed to accommodate community mailboxes. Many of the community mailboxes have been installed in areas where there is no sidewalk and no designated area for parking, too close to an intersection, and in areas that offer little or no street lighting, etc.

Many of the community mailbox locations are in areas that are not accessible for, most importantly, our senior residents and the disabled. The status quo is simply not accessible to seniors, those who are dependent on home delivery.

I have provided a summary of complaints the town has received in regard to the mailbox locations. I've also included pictures of some of the community mailbox sites. The need to maintain safety is paramount at all times, and has not been the case in the conversion to community mailboxes in Tecumseh.

Canada Post has not given us the opportunity to build safety measures in the proposed mailbox locations. Canada Post has not carried out meaningful consultations with the town or its residents where they've denied public meetings with our constituents. They did not take any consideration and offer suggestions for alternatives, such as delivery every other day, or two to three times per week. Delivery every three days as opposed to every five days would probably have been more effective, and I firmly believe much more effective than the conversion to community mailboxes in those old neighbourhoods.

In my opinion, decision-making was not driven by business or service considerations, but rather politics. In the process, there has been an unreasonable downloading of costs from the federal crown corporation on to our own municipal government, including the Town of Tecumseh. Local government now has to clean up the mess with little co-operation from Canada Post. It has had a complete disregard for immediate and future impacts to our communities with the conversion to the community mailboxes.

I strongly believe the government should stand by what it promised, to restore door-to-door mail delivery.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Richmond, may I offer apologies. We have three representatives from your union here today, and we have them all in three different sessions. That was necessitated by a number of reasons, which I won't get into.

[Derek Richmond, Ontario Region Coordinator, Canadian Union of Postal Workers]

I could have been in Toronto.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Anyway, you're up now, five minutes, sir, please.

[Derek Richmond]

I'm the CUPW Ontario region coordinator. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the committee for coming out and allowing us to speak today. I'm here to share a viable future for Canada Post, one that is focused on expanding service and ensuring that Canadians receive benefits from expansion instead of decreasing service.

In December 2013 Canada Post and the Harper-led Conservatives announced a Canada Post five-point plan that included an increase in the price of stamps and eliminating door-to-door delivery across Canada. After this announcement, it was very clear that Canadians opposed this decision and voiced the concern that they wanted the service to remain.

CUPW launched a campaign to save door-to-door delivery. Canadians all across this country signed petitions, called their MPs, and created community groups dedicated to this cause along with many special interest groups publicly opposed to the elimination of this service. CUPW reached out into the community by going to several community events and canvassing, and received overwhelming support at every event we attended.

I'd also like to point out a letter by Justin Trudeau prior to the federal election, dated September 25. It was an open letter to public service unions. In this letter the Liberal government made it very clear they wanted a better service for Canadians, and they also stopped the Harper plan to end door-to-door and assured Canadians they would receive the postal service they rely on. This topic should not have been up for the postal review in phase one. This was an election promise that should be honoured.

Between December 2013 and election day, several cities were chosen to lose their home mail delivery, including parts of Windsor. Municipalities started to see the impacts from installing CMBs and the costs downloaded on to municipalities, which resulted in over 600 municipalities across Canada submitting resolutions to keep the current door-to-door delivery mode. The public and municipal councillors started calling the union offices on a regular basis, frustrated with Canada Post's decision and lack of compassion with regard to not only losing this service but also with the locations where Canada Post was installing these community mailboxes. Many complaints came into our office in regard to Canada Post not getting back to residents with regards to complaints, so they felt they needed to contact the local to vent their frustrations and have a compassionate ear to listen to their complaints. After CMBs were implemented, we also fielded calls about frozen locks, lack of ice and snow removal, lighting, vandalism, vehicle traffic, litter, illegal dumping of garbage, and unsafe access.

Canada Post failed in this attempt to convince Canadians that increased costs and decreased services is a good thing. Canada Post failed to consult with Canadians, especially the most vulnerable Canadians like seniors and people with disabilities. Canada Post had little regard for seniors, people with disabilities, and homeowners while making these decisions.

Another important issue surrounding the post office is ensuring that Canada Post continues to not only maintain the current five-day delivery but expands to the growing needs of Canadians who make online purchases. Businesses and Canadians rely on daily delivery for sensitive material. Addressed and unaddressed ad mail is an effective marketing tool for large and small businesses that stimulates sales and job growth.

Canadians are more and more using e-commerce, and the essential demand is to receive these items more quickly. Canada Post must expand parcel delivery to evening and weekends to meet these demands and ensure customers receive items straight to their front door. Weekend and evening parcel delivery will decrease the need for customers to travel to a retail counter to pick up their item. It's an additional chore. Imagine now having to go pick up your mail at a CMB and then having to travel to a retail counter to pick up your parcel. This is extremely frustrating for Canadians who deserve a better service.

Again we ask Canadians to pay more for a service but receive less service. Canada Post is the number one parcel company across the country in Canada and must expand to meet the growing needs of Canadians for e-commerce. If we do not expand service, Canadians will go elsewhere for delivery needs.

Alternative-day delivery would force our customers to use alternative delivery companies that provide daily delivery but at a higher cost than Canada Post. These costs would be downloaded on the customer, a further revenue loss for Canada Post.

The declining volumes of letter mail can be attributed to large corporations that charge anywhere between $2 and $4 to mail statements. This encourages Canadians to sign up for e-billing as they do not wish to pay gouging fees for service.

This practice should be stopped by the federal government immediately. With the insecurity of the online world, the safest way to transmit important sensitive material is still the mail service.

Canada Post also needs to expand into postal banking. All over the world, postal banks are thriving, bringing additional revenue to expand service. Those countries are India, Italy, Switzerland, and Taiwan.

Many different options on how to create postal banks need to be considered, including aligning with a credit union or branching on our own. Postal banking would provide basic banking services, like savings and chequing, bill payments, cheque cashing, ATMs, and other fees.

I'm running out of time, aren't I?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

You're actually out of time.

[Derek Richmond]

Okay, I'll get to the end.

Canada Post has profited in 19 out of the last 21 years. In 2015, it was about $100 million. In this year alone, the first quarter was $42 million. There's no reason that these profits shouldn't be invested into expanding service and good-paying jobs for the future of Canadians.

It's now time to end Canada Post's manufactured crisis to set up the privatization of Canada Post. Privatization will only increase costs to Canadians and further decrease services. Canadians deserve a post that meets their needs, and not the needs of big corporations only thinking of profits over service. This postal review can be an historic time for the future of Canada Post. It's time that Canada Post delivers on the needs of Canadians.

I ask the OGGO committee, the postal review committee, the Canadian government, and Canadians to stand up, speak in favour of the initiatives put forward today, and support Canada Post and a better service for all Canadians.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

I will remind all panellists, if it's possible, to try to keep under five minutes, because we do want to allow enough time for questions. We find that the real information transfer comes during the question-and-answer process rather than the opening statements.

We now have, from the Corporation of the City of Windsor, Ms. Jones.

You're up for five minutes, please.

[Gayle Jones, Diversity and Accessibility Officer, Corporation of the City of Windsor (Ontario)]

Thank you for letting me have the opportunity to speak today. I am the diversity and accessibility officer for the City of Windsor. My background is as a lawyer with an undergraduate degree in sociology, and I'm passionate about human rights and accessibility issues. I offer my input today with the utmost respect.

As a diversity and accessibility professional, I have a number of concerns related to discontinuing Canada Post's door-to-door service for the remaining citizens who are currently in receipt. I believe the choice to discontinue this service would disproportionately affect seniors and individuals with various disabilities.

The intent behind the decision might not be to have a negative impact on these populations, but the reality is that it will. The previous correspondence from Canada Post to municipalities stated the following:

Canada Post will be sensitive to the needs of seniors and of disabled Canadians. Canada Post is developing alternative approaches for people with significant mobility challenges, who lack viable alternatives and upon whom delivery to a community mailbox would impose an unacceptable hardship.

It concerns me greatly that it's only mobility challenges that are mainly being focused on, as there are many individuals with various disabilities for whom it could pose a substantial barrier. I'm referring to individuals with various mental health disabilities, disabilities involving fatigue, disabilities that affect mobility and agility, and visual disabilities, just to name a few.

I do note that in “Canada Post's Five-point Action Plan: Our progress to date”, there does appear to have been progress made. However, from what I can see—because there's not a lot online to even be able to tell—it seems that process that has been created would take quite some effort on the part of an individual who's requesting the accommodation.

First, the individual might find out that they actually have an option. That might not happen. It might sound easy for an individual who is knowledgeable about government processes, but for some elderly persons or individuals with a disability, it might be very challenging.

Then the person has to call a designated number and request an information package and the questionnaire. For an individual who also has language barriers, that could be another barrier. I spent a few minutes doing a search online to see if I could get a copy of that information package and questionnaire. It's nowhere to be found. I could not find it and I'm pretty adept at finding these types of things.

Then the individual must understand the information, complete the questionnaire, and send it back to Canada Post. It's reasonable to assume that they would have to provide some sort of verification from a medical professional. It is understandable that it would be required. However, it's another step, another barrier.

Then a representative from Canada Post has to review and discuss options with the individual. This takes time and effort, and involves very personal information. It likely requires individuals requesting accommodation to advocate for themselves. Many individuals would give up by this time and fail to request the accommodation that they need. That is a concern, a big one.

But let's assume the individual got through the process this far and discussed his or her individual needs with a representative. It appears as though that individual will be asked whether he or she exhausted all other reasonable possibilities prior to being considered for an alternate approach.

The truth is not everyone has someone who can help them pick up mail. Mail is a very personal and sometimes confidential thing. Requiring these sometimes vulnerable persons to consider having someone else handle their mail for them is a concern. Bills and government documents are very important to receive.

What about email delivery as an option? The ironic thing is that individuals who have less access to computers are the ones who are more likely to be reliant on Canada Post delivery. For these individuals who might not own a computer or might not even know how to use one, email is not a reasonable or accessible alterative.

I'm not stating in any way that Canada Post is trying to put up barriers for seniors and persons with disabilities. I actually think the corporation is trying to figure out something workable. But I know from experience and working in the field how difficult it can be for individuals to ask for help, especially requiring personal accommodations related to their health. It takes much effort, many feel they are being a burden, and many will give up or never ask in the first place.

There are some very viable alternatives that were presented in the plan, such as sliding trays and key-turning aids, but I fail to understand why an individual who has provided verification from a medical professional would have to consider options such as redirecting their mail to a post office or someone else.

I worry about those individuals who really need door-to-door as an option, whether they'll be questioned about every other option first before they're given an option. For a senior or a person with a disability who has no one to help, has much reduced mobility, and has no email access, mail delivery once a week could really result in some hardships.

I would suggest that the process needs to be streamlined and that it is important that it could be accessed in many ways, once the individual gets that verification from a medical professional.

Let's imagine a situation. Can you imagine how vulnerable a senior person or a person with a disability—or anyone, for that matter—would feel if they had to reveal to a stranger over the phone that they have no one to help them and that they are alone? The representative has their address and personal information, and now details that could put that person at risk.

Most of the points I want to make I'll state in some of the answers, because a lot of them are repeated by other people. I wanted to cover the portion I thought other people were not going to cover.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much, Ms. Jones. You're right. Hopefully, during the question and answer period, you will be able to communicate whatever else you have remaining.

Now we go to our final panellist, Ms. Sungee John, from the City of Windsor Seniors Advisory Committee.

Go ahead, please. You have five minutes.

[Sungee John, City of Windsor Seniors Advisory Committee]

The City of Windsor Seniors Advisory Committee, which I'll shorten to SAC, welcomes this opportunity to make its presentation to the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

The SAC is an appointed committee of the City of Windsor and comprises a cross-section of seniors, representatives of seniors groups, and agencies representatives, all of whom are fully committed to working toward the betterment of the life and living environment of seniors in this community. The SAC believes that all older adults have the right to multiple opportunities for healthy aging and a full range of supports to assist them.

This brief before the committee will focus on the impact of proposed changes to the Canada Post Corporation's service delivery to the Canadian public as it affects seniors and marginalized and disenfranchised older adults in our community.

For the SAC, the corporation's decision to eliminate its door-to-door service delivery will be felt most acutely by seniors. Seniors are in an especially vulnerable situation when it comes to mail delivery. While many are living independently and enjoying new lives and challenges in retirement, a significant number of seniors also face increasing health setbacks and isolation. It is this segment of the senior population that Canada Post has not given in-depth thought to in its proposal to eliminate door-to-door service and establish community mailboxes.

Many seniors face health struggles while maintaining their own home. It is these seniors who rely on door-to-door service and are physically unable to make the trip to a community mailbox. These are individuals who are housebound for a number of reasons, due to their physical disability, diminishing cognitive skills, and general frailty. For them, community mailboxes are not an option.

Moreover, for these vulnerable seniors, there is an element of safety in being able to receive their mail at their home. Community mailboxes pose potential security risks, whether from opportunistic strangers or the unpredictability of the weather, especially during the winter.

In these times of diminishing public use of the regular mail system, the SAC understands that this has an impact on the corporation's fiscal outcome. However, the needs of vulnerable Canadians should not be overlooked and cast aside for the bottom line.

Instead of a total elimination of door-to-door service, perhaps a reduced mail service can be implemented, two or three times a week rather than daily. This will maintain the sense of security that vulnerable residents have of their mail service and continue to keep jobs through letter carriers.

Finally, another thing the corporation may consider for our increasingly aging population is a rethinking of how postal workers engage with vulnerable seniors who live at home. Currently, letter carriers will notify homeowners if there are aspects of exterior maintenance that may hinder their ability to deliver the mail, such as unshovelled snow or unleashed animals. If the corporation empowers and trains its employees to be more observant of conditions of neglect that may raise possible concerns about residents within these homes, this would bring a new level of social responsibility that may enhance the corporation's role and relevance.

For the standing committee's consideration, the SAC therefore recommends the following: that the corporation consider making an exemption for vulnerable seniors to continue receiving door-to-door service, that the corporation consider reducing the frequency of its door-to-door service instead of outright elimination, and that the corporation train its letter carriers to be more attentive when delivering mail to homes where seniors live.

In closing, the SAC appreciates that the committee took the time to make a visit to Windsor and hear our voices—rather than for us to travel to Ottawa—and we would be pleased to discuss this with you at a future time.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Well, that future time may be this afternoon—right now, in fact.

We will go into our seven-minute rounds, and Mr. Whalen, you're first up.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for coming. It's great to hear such a diversity of voices. We're hearing from lots of different groups in the Windsor area, and these views are appreciated because Windsor is one of these areas, like my own riding, that saw change in its service during the election. There are also lots of different types of services that are present here in the greater Windsor area, and I appreciate the Mayor of Tecumseh coming, because the views of the municipalities are also important.

In terms of what the Liberal Party position is—and I want to clarify this for a reason—it was correctly stated by Mr. Richmond that we promised to stop Stephen Harper's plan to end door-to-door mail delivery in Canada and undertake a new review of Canada Post to make sure that it provides high-quality service at a reasonable price to Canadians no matter where they live. That was our commitment. Some people have interpreted that to mean that we're committed to a particular view of restoring home mail delivery. I want to say that from my perspective I don't feel bound by that. I think it's important for me to say that because I want the committee's work to be open. We're open to all options. We're not bound by the task force report. We're not bound by any perceived commitment to restore.

We said “save” it by doing two things: stopping the rollout of the transition, which we did in the first week of the new mandate; and holding these consultations to find a new path forward for a sustainable Canada Post. From my perspective, we've delivered on the campaign promise, and now we are open, as a committee, and certainly on the government side, to move forward fairly and openly to examine all possibilities.

I have so many questions, but first I want to focus on Mr. McNamara. On the cost to municipalities, can you walk us through some of the costs associated with the move to community mailboxes? If you have any facts or figures related to how much it costs per winter to manage and maintain these community mailboxes on behalf of Canada Post, that would be very informative.

[Gary McNamara]

I'll give you some examples. When they were putting the boxes in position and so forth, very little input took place. They came in and they did a cut in the curb. Then we came to find out it's less than nine metres away from one of the busiest intersections. It makes absolutely no sense. The cut's been done. Now that has to be restored. Who restores it? Does Canada Post send a contractor to dig out the curb and gutter which now is compromising the asphalt of the road itself? No, it's the municipality that goes in. We have to repair it.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Do you have some costs, any figures, on what you spent last year in fixing errors?

[Gary McNamara]

I can certainly get that to the committee. I do have a lot of pictures that are probably self-explanatory when you see them. I can get you the numbers. We'll do that.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

What about responding to complaints for cleaning up the snow and ice around them? Does that fall on the city or has Canada Post been picking up that part?

[Gary McNamara]

It's the responsibility of Canada Post, but there are times where it's not timely. I understand. There are circumstances, depending on the severity of the storm and so forth. Sometimes our plows are out maybe two or three times in a day. We get that, but we still get a lot of complaints where, two or three days later, even for the community boxes that we have now, it's an ongoing dialogue with Canada Post to send somebody to clean it up. At times, our own crews will do it because we get the phone calls. Canada Post doesn't get the phone calls.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Mayor McNamara, you probably have a fairly extensive call centre to manage a place like Tecumseh. Do you have a cost associated per call to the call centre that you use to manage complaints? Do you track the cost to manage that?

[Gary McNamara]

Let me tell you, I wish we had the big call centres of a big city. We're a small community, and our directors, for example, wear multiple hats, plus we have four CSRs, customer service representatives, who are at the front. They spend quite an amount of time answering calls about snow removal because people can't access their boxes, and so forth.

We've gone through the first winter and we were very fortunate here. It wasn't a bad winter. But if it had been two years' prior, we would have had a tremendous number of calls.