Government Operations Committee on Oct. 6th, 2016

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Ladies and gentlemen, colleagues, I think we'll get going. I know we're missing a panellist or two, but I don't want to delay the proceedings. We do have some panellists who have been patiently waiting. I believe in trying to start the meetings on time.

Welcome, everyone. Panellists, you probably know this anyway, but I'll just reiterate that the minister responsible for Canada Post, the Honourable Judy Foote, has initiated an extensive consultation process to try to determine the future of Canada Post.

The first phase of the consultation process was the appointment of a task force whose mandate was to examine the financial viability and sustainability of Canada Post. The task force has completed their report. We have had a chance to take a look at it. We have met with the task force members and have had an opportunity to question them.

Phase two of the consultation process is why we are here in Bathurst today. We are going from coast to coast to coast as a committee, talking to organizations, individuals, municipalities, communities large and small, urban and rural, and first nations communities, asking their opinions on what they would like to see for the future of Canada Post. That is why both of you are here today.

We will be asking each of you to give a brief opening statement, which hopefully will be no more than five minutes. I'll try to give you a signal when there's one minute left, in case you're still talking after four minutes. Following those presentations, there will be an opportunity for all of our committee members to question you and try to elicit more information from you.

At the end of the day, all of the comments you make and those of others who will be making comments from now until the end of this tour will be included in our final report, which I hope to be tabling in Parliament before the end of this year. I'm guessing it'll probably be towards the latter part of November or early December that the report will be tabled. All of you, obviously, will have a chance to take a look at that report.

Without further ado, we'll get going. I would like to welcome Ms. Anderson.

Ms. Anderson, you have the floor for five minutes or less, please.

[Amy Anderson, President, Atlantic Region, Local 12, Canadian Union of Postal Workers]

Thank you. Bear with me, I'm a little nervous. I will be reading my speech.

Good morning and thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today about a topic that is very near and dear to my heart: our public post office. First, I'd like to say I'm not a banker or an accountant, nor a politician or a lawyer, and I don't hold a business degree, so please don't expect me to have all the answers here today.

What I am is a postal worker and I'm proud of it. One of my strengths is common sense, something that seems to be in short supply these days. I've been a postal worker for 30 years and I've seen many changes in the postal service over the years. I am here today to tell you a little bit of what I've experienced and seen over that span of time.

It seems someone, whether it was a group or an individual is unknown, decided that Canada Post either shouldn't exist or shouldn't exist as a crown corporation, and then it began. At first there was a gradual decline in services, the opening of private retail outlets, and the centralization of sortation centres which increased the time for mail to move from point A to point B. Also, there was reckless spending, like the forking out of billions of dollars for high-speed, automated sorting machines, when the first-class mail was already beginning its decline. They cut retail hours and sometimes completely closed rural post offices, where in some locations it was the only face of government left in the community. As well, there was the spending of hundreds of thousands of dollars on reducing the size of public retail areas of small-town urban post offices, making them as unfriendly and uncomfortable as possible for customers. Actually, one of our residents asked me one day why Canada Post seems to hate its customers. She said that when she complained to someone in management, the response she received was that she should go to Jean Coutu for her postal needs.

Thank goodness she hasn't let that stop her and continues to bring her business to the local post office, even though she says it makes her angry to see the postal worker in a box, or what is left of our retail counter.

Last but not least is the latest development, the loss of door-to-door delivery in the city. In a northern New Brunswick community with an aging demographic and some pretty harsh weather conditions, we now have a high number of seniors risking hips and ankles, slipping and sliding down our streets to their community mailbox, and hoping their mail compartment won't be frozen solid when they get there.

Speaking of winter, residents of Bathurst were informed by mail last week—and I have my own letter here with me today—that Canada Post is replacing every single community mailbox lock in the next couple of months due to the high number of complaints about locks freezing last winter. The Acadie-Bathurst local has requested a cost on this from both management and our MP, but to date have not received an answer to either request.

Despite all of this, Canada Post in the last 17 years has had net cumulative profits of $2.18 billion, has paid $589 million to the government in the form of dividends, and paid $537 million in taxes. As I said earlier, I'm not an accountant, but these numbers don't seem to add up to the projected loss that Canada Post keeps talking about in the media. From what I understand, just in the last quarter, there was a profit of around $44 million before taxes.

Just imagine what we could do if we had an agenda to save the post office rather than squander away its resources. The discussion paper and online survey released last week seemed to focus on cuts and rate hikes, and closing post offices and opening more franchises, which to me is the same as privatization. I was disappointed to see that there was little to no consideration for revenue-adding services proposed by the Canadian Union of Postal Workers, with the proposal of banking being dismissed almost completely.

Would any of these ideas work? I'm not the expert, but a discredited idea never works. I know that a corporation that continues to squander money and send paying customers elsewhere has no chance of survival. Why is Canada Post so set on self-destruction?

It doesn't take a lot of common sense to know that we need to adapt and grow to survive. If we're seeing this type of irresponsible mismanagement in our public postal service happening in a small town like Bathurst, I can understand why it looks like Canada Post is in serious trouble.

This Liberal government needs to stop the demolition of Canada Post and find a leader who will stop treating postal workers as the enemy, and work together with us and the public to develop and expand services and create a public postal service that will completely meet the needs of all Canadians in our cities, towns, and communities. Our post office does need to change, but let's work to make it better, not cause its downfall.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much, Ms. Anderson.

Next up is Mayor Fongemie. Your Worship, you're up for five minutes or less, please.

[Paolo Fongemie, Mayor, Municipality of Bathurst]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Hello.

This is the first year that we have had community mail boxes.

The transition was quite difficult. There were locks that were frozen or defective. Personally, the lock on my community mail box has been changed three times in the recent months and it will be changed a fourth time, according to the note we received.

People are worried about the location of the boxes. A number of people have to walk past a box to get to their own. The location of the boxes seems a bit problematic. There is no parking. Some boxes are located on busy streets and people have to park on the street. This could be dangerous, a safety issue.

Then there are cleaning and clearing problems. The boxes are cleaned by a small van with a scraper on the front. After a storm, the first three or four rows of boxes are not accessible for a number of days.

Sand and salt are spread out by a dump truck. In some places, though, there is no salt or sand.

Moreover, there are no garbage cans near the community boxes. When people receive flyers, it creates pollution.

There is no lighting at night where the boxes are located.

However, today, we do have some media through which to have discussions. We have focus groups and social media. I invited our population to fill out the survey online and to provide comments on Facebook.

Part of the population wants the door-to-door mail delivery, but a good portion of the population has accepted community mailboxes.

That being said, everyone has concerns for the elderly, seniors, and people who have mobility issues or disabilities. The population of our region has the highest average age in New Brunswick—I think the average age is close to 50—which means this issue affects a lot of our citizens because they are seniors.

Having documentation or a survey to ask if someone would be open to the idea of paying extra to have door-to-door mail delivery is not a viable option for our citizens, because most of them have fixed revenue or limited revenue. The service should be provided to all of our citizens.

Carbon tax is a big issue right now. Canada Post is not a greener organization. We were very deceived. All the vehicles that have been bought are not electrical vehicles. When we want to encourage green energy and green habits among the citizens, I think the institutions in the province and in municipalities in Canada should be the leaders in embracing greener change by having electric cars or cars that run on biomass. When institutions embrace those new technologies, it brings down costs for citizens, if they also want to go in that direction. Therefore, it would be nice if all the vehicles were electric and if we provided some access to electrical outlets for people coming in.

Now I'll talk about the jobs. I'm a college professor and a college director now. I remember, in early 2000, we went to an e-commerce conference and they asked what the biggest competitor of Canada Post was in 2000. Everybody said UPS or Purolator. It was email. Technology and new trends do affect the working environment.

For a region like ours, losing eight jobs is the equivalent of Moncton losing close to 100 jobs. How can we do things differently?

In the 1980s, the Trudeau government decentralized the public service. That's why all the social insurance numbers are created in Bathurst. That's why in Newfoundland we have Revenue Canada, and Moncton has DFO.

How can we profit from all of those outlets across Canada and in rural areas add new services for our citizens through the current offices of Canada Post?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

To all our panellists, I'll just give the same briefing that I've given panellists in meetings we've had before. I know that many times you have things unsaid in your opening statements; however, we will have copies of your opening statements. Also, we find that most of the information that you wish to impart is covered during the question-and-answer period.

We'll have ample opportunity, Your Worship, if you have additional information during that time.

Now we turn to Mayor Atkinson. Your Worship, you have five minutes or less, please.

[Carson Atkinson, Mayor, Village of Chipman]

Thank you very much.

My name is Mr. Carson Atkinson. I'm a retired educator. I was a long-time educator in various parts of the country—Yukon, Northwest Territories, New Brunswick—and I find myself as mayor of Chipman.

As mayor of Chipman, I am pleased that our community has been given the opportunity to appear before the House of Commons standing committee.

Scotiabank is closing its doors on Chipman today at four o'clock, and I will be there for the closing, provided I'm not tied up here too long.

From the brochure, which I've given you as well, we wish to convey our strong support for postal banking in our community. You have a brochure that we have put together, and I'll highlight it briefly. Going back, Chipman dates to the 1830s.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

I'm not sure if every committee member has a copy of that. We'll ensure that copies get circulated—

[Carson Atkinson]

I was told seven would be sufficient.

We are situated on the Salmon River, leading into Grand Lake, the largest freshwater lake in the province of New Brunswick. Recreational opportunities abound in our community. There are all kinds of activities, from birdwatching to cross-country skiing, four-wheeling, snowmobiling, and boating—extensive boating. We can have 60-foot boats tied up at the wharf and they can go anywhere in the world from there.

We have a population of about 1,250. It's probably stabilizing; however, we do have a mainstay. We have an employer, J.D. Irving, that employs 200 people within the boundaries of our small community, and there are about 300 to 350 people working in support industries outside, to support that mill operation. It has had a $38-million expansion in the last three years, and another $3-million one this summer. It's a substantial employer. In fact, we have jobs we cannot fill in the community, 15 at the moment. We have this Irving mill in the area only because of CN's accessibility. They ship their product out on CN every day, five days a week.

For services, we have all of the usual kinds of activities: an industrial park, Service New Brunswick, post office, hardware stores, insurance companies, two schools, Chipman Outreach, Chipman Community Care, and Care 'N' Share, which support various groups, from children to adults and seniors. Like my compatriot here, we have a very high number of senior citizens.

We have seven churches and a local winery, Sea Buckthorn—I shouldn't even mention the name. While I always say Chipman is open for business, Sea Buckthorn is developing. They started at 2,000, and they hope to go much higher in terms of production, 2,000 per month.

We have seniors complexes, some of them being built. As the new mayor, I am fostering that. I am talking to everybody in the country: come to Chipman and build, because we need housing.

We have a monthly newspaper, the Grand Lake Mirror. I've talked about the J.D. Irving mill within our community. We have a local call centre, Cloud5, which employs about 30 people. Our Chipman Outreach has about 50 people employed there.

We sent out a banking questionnaire to about 1,100 people in the surrounding area, because the bank closure today at four o'clock strongly impacts the further growth of our community. We have a committee which includes one of the MPs, a lawyer, a former deputy premier, and a variety of people who volunteered, including executives who are retired bankers. We got responses back with over 800 supporting it. You see some of the pictures from some of the press reports we've had, a couple of the support letters, including Jim Irving's letter of support for a banking institution, and pictures.

The Scotiabank closure highlights a number of issues facing all small communities across our country. Loss of banking capabilities for business further erodes local businesses. The unequal treatment of rural and urban citizens is to the detriment of rural citizens. The demographics of rural New Brunswick speak to the need of our aging population to access local banking and avoid being further victimized by keeping cash in their homes. There is the loss of secure night depositories at the bank which are used by churches, Service New Brunswick, the post office, and over 100 businesses. At a time of substantially increasing profits by our major banks, government is still allowing bank closures, especially in rural areas.

What does Chipman need? We need a secure night depositor, to be used by our many businesses, organizations, and churches; a local place to deposit funds and get basic financial services; and a place for banking for our current residents who don't do online banking. We need the amenities of basic banking, as it is critical to maintaining the vibrancy of our community. If you choose Chipman as a postal banking pilot site, we would be very appreciative. Moving government strategy toward postal banking, especially postal banking in Chipman, would be a great opportunity for our federal government to demonstrate unquestionable support of rural and isolated areas.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go directly to the questions from our committee members. The first intervenor will have seven minutes, and that will be Monsieur Ayoub.

Mr. Ayoub, you have seven minutes.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you Mr. Chair.

I would also like to thank the three witnesses for being here and for welcoming us.

Thanks also to those in attendance. There is a bigger turnout than elsewhere, and I am very pleased to see that.

We are discussing a very important topic, Canada Post. As you know, we are doing a cross-country tour and today we are in Bathurst.

To begin, I would like to address the mayor of Bathurst, and then the mayor of Chipman.

Roughly how long ago was the change made in Bathurst?

[Paolo Fongemie]

It was in the past year.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Through a bit of research on the Internet, I found documents prepared by Canada Post that outline the plan to eliminate home delivery and introduce community mail boxes.

You said that some people agreed with the change once it was made and that some people still do not. How do you account for this difference?

[Paolo Fongemie]

People will resist any kind of change.

The common concern, even among those who accepted the community mail boxes, was for seniors and those with reduced mobility. Yet that describes our community. There are more and more people from villages or neighbouring communities who move to our city and live in apartments. Our population is older. The problems arise primarily in the winter.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

As regards the planning of the changes, how were you consulted or informed by Canada Post?

[Paolo Fongemie]

To my knowledge, there was very little communication. We learned that Bathurst was one of the cities in the province that would receive the new service. It was kind of hush hush.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Were you able to take part in choosing the location of the community mail boxes?

[Paolo Fongemie]

Not to my knowledge.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

So it was imposed on you. There was a plan and it was implemented.

[Paolo Fongemie]

Yes.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

So there was no meeting with Canada Post before it happened.

[Paolo Fongemie]

No.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Based on that, if you had had the opportunity to provide input or had been consulted, what would you have suggested as regards the replacement of community mail boxes, in terms of distance and safety? You talked about maintenance. You did not really receive any information about maintenance, for example. The city is not responsible for the maintenance.

[Paolo Fongemie]

No.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Is it a sub-contractor?

[Paolo Fongemie]

A sub-contractor is responsible for the maintenance.

Actually, the only communication we received was the written message last week informing us that all locks will be changed over coming weeks, in view of the problems we have had. That is a recent message and we did not receive anything else.