Government Operations Committee on Oct. 7th, 2016

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Go ahead, Mr. Godbout.

[Claude Godbout]

My comment will be along the same lines.

There are factors that must be considered at Canada Post before draconian service cuts are made. Adjustments can be made to services, as I mentioned earlier, whether it be marginal adjustments or new services. I was talking about parcel boxes. I think there is an interesting opportunity in that area.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Yes, I understand.

Canada Post will deliver once a week for seniors or disabled people who are not able to get it. Do you believe that once a week is adequate?

Mr. April, they will assign boxes, if there's a request, on a lower level. One of the things we've heard is that there's not enough information passed out that this service is available.

Is once a week sufficient?

[Simon April]

I would say once a week, depending on the reason for the disability. I could not give you a specific answer on that subject. The community mailboxes must be made accessible. That observation comes from the community of persons with disabilities.

The lack of accessibility is a problem that not only concerns Canada Post but has also spread generally. What we are trying to advocate is that all Canada Post functions should be integrated within an act for persons with disabilities such as the one we are discussing. That would mean, for example, adjusting the height of post office counters. An accessibility policy is therefore necessary for both Canada Post and the government as a whole.

[Olivier Collomb d’Eyrames]

Ask yourself the question, sir.

Would you agree to having your mail delivered once a week? I believe that to ask the question is to answer it. Why should persons with disabilities be treated differently from the rest of the population? Put the question to people in general? Is once a week an acceptable standard? If it is my—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

A lot of people would say yes, but not everyone, and that's why we're here. Maybe it needs to be twice a week. I'm not sure. That's why I'm asking.

A lot of people have said that once a week is fine, because there's such a reduction, but that's not for everyone. That's why we ask the question.

Madame Gagnon.

[Judith Gagnon]

We think that twice a week would be quite good. Once a week is not enough because, in some instances, staements and bills are delivered. As previously mentioned, some people do not use the Internet. If they receive their mail only once a week, they may miss bill payment dates. Twice a week could be appropriate. We think that would be acceptable.

[Olivier Collomb d’Eyrames]

I would like to add that some people who have limitations need someone to help them read their mail or to open an envelope. It is possible that a person may be able to read but does not have the necessary dexterity to open the mail. That person may also be blind or able to open the envelope, but—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay.

[Olivier Collomb d’Eyrames]

If the mail is delivered only once a week, imagine the effort that has to be made for a person who needs a helper who is not there at all times. It really would be better for the mail to be delivered two or three times a week. The money should be found elsewhere. That is all.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

That's a fair answer. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you.

Ms. Trudel, you have seven minutes.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for their presentations. They were very interesting.

Ms. Gagnon and Mr. Godbout, have the people you represent in the rural communities, that is to say retirees, told you about the impact of the post office closings and about the negative effects they can have?

We also talked about the Internet at the start of this meeting. We increasingly use services over the Internet. I mentioned that not everyone has an online bank account and conducts transactions online. Do the members of your association use the Internet? I do not necessarily want to know the percentage of people who use it. However, can you tell me whether they actively conduct transactions on the Internet, to pay bills they receive by mail or to use a bank account?

[Judith Gagnon]

I am going to answer your first question on the rural regions.

That is a timely question. Over the past two days, we have had a meeting in Rivière-du-Loup with people from across Quebec. Some of them, who came from a rural region, told us that the closing of a post office in a region had an incredibly terrible impact. It is one more factor that is sapping the vitality of the rural regions.

It is easy to sap the vitality of the rural regions. The post office represents something important for those regions. Mail delivery is a public service. Some caisses populaires have closed in certain locations. Seniors are angry about that. They even wonder whether they will be able to stay in their region if authorities are starting to cancel all their services. That is a major question mark in their minds.

As I told you during my presentation, many older people are reluctant to use the Internet. Do not try to encourage them to do so. They do not want to use it, and they know other people who do not want to use it either. We are trying to change things in that regard. There are a lot of knowledge improvement programs, but people are reluctant to use the Internet. There will be a large percentage of those people who will not want to use the Internet.

[Claude Godbout]

I have another comment on that subject.

In the brief, we say that 32% of seniors use the Internet and that 44% of that number conduct transactions to pay their bills. This does not represent a large percentage of seniors who pay their bills that way. That 32% represents approximately 15% or 16% of people 65 and over who use the Internet to conduct their transactions.

Consequently, we should have no illusions or think this might be the magic solution, particularly since we know the Internet is not necessarily accessible in seniors residences, where residents are housed in rooms rather than apartments. The Internet involves significant costs even for people who live in an apartment that is not in a residence. To use the Internet or to conduct transactions, you need an Internet connection, a computer, and often a printer to print statements. You also have to update software. That can easily amount to $50 or $60 a month.

It was said that 45% of Quebecers receive old age security and the guaranteed income supplement, which means those individuals earn less than $17,000. It is impossible for them to pay costs of $60 or $70 a month just to receive their bills. You should not think that the Internet will be the universal solution. We must determine how seniors can obtain service without necessarily having to connect.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

Mr. Collomb d'Eyrames and Mr. Simon, earlier you talked about medical certificates. I think that is a good idea. Persons with reduced mobility, for example, may have trouble being recognized as such and paying for such a certificate.

The idea of merging services is a good one. This is the first time I have heard it.

Going back to medical certificates, it was said that seniors of advanced age have trouble travelling. I often cite the example of Ms. Tremblay—that is her actual name—in the Saguenay. She is 90 years old and has to take a taxi to go and pick up her mail in winter and summer because she does not get out often. She takes a taxi to shop for groceries and goes home by taxi. She must therefore pay additional costs.

What recommendations should Canada Post or the committee develop to make life easier for our seniors in this regard?

[Olivier Collomb d’Eyrames]

We should look at the tax form, for example, because persons with disabilities are not the only ones who can claim the tax credit for severe impairment. We believe that a senior who is afraid of falling tires more quickly. Some people belong to our group on this matter.

We are not looking at your programs or criteria either. You make them and you undoubtedly have very good reasons, particularly financial ones, not to change your criteria too much. In our opinion, however, it serves no purpose to request further proof from individuals whose significant limitations are already recognized.

However, we are very sensitive to what the Association québécoise de défense des droits des personnes retraitées et préretraitées is proposing to find ways to assist seniors in obtaining proof of medical condition. Once again, there is sustainable development, prevention, the walkability audit, and the seniors fall prevention program. On both sides, it is as though we were in fact telling these people to fall and break a hip in order to get a note from their doctor. We have no solutions for individuals who are in grey areas.

On the other hand, what we know from experience and from the branches, based on what our oldest supporters tell us—since we also have supporters who are 80 years old—is that the association has always considered the federal government more broadly accepting on the disability question because it has a different sensibility, one that comes in part from Ontario, which recognized certain limitations long before Quebec, particularly in the area of learning disorders. The federal government has always had a much more generous vision of disabilities and functional limitations than Quebec.

In our view, all existing certification mechanisms must be automatically applied. We also have to find solutions for seniors. A doctor should be able to certify that a person 70 years old is at risk if he or she falls. This is a concern that must be taken into account. It risks costing Canada Post a lot of money because people have been living without service for a long time. Now that they know they can complete a form, they will complete it in order to obtain the service, and so much the better.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Lightbound, you have the floor for seven minutes.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all the witnesses for being here with us today. My first question is for Ms. Gagnon.

In your presentation, you discussed the letter carrier's social role. I would like to know what that role represents for seniors.

I am sitting on the committee once again as a replacement. I have met representatives of the Canadian Union of Postal Workers who suggested that letter carriers could be asked to verify whether seniors are at home, whether they are able to answer the door, whether they are alive, conscious, and so on. The role of the letter carrier could be expanded in that way.

I would like to know your opinion on the subject. How could we expand the role of letter carriers relative to what they currently do?

[Judith Gagnon]

For people who are isolated, the arrival of the letter carrier who brings the mail to their door may be a source of hope and a human presence. Without being a local social worker, a letter carrier may observe things incidentally, notice an abnormal situation in the home, and report it.

There are programs designed to help support seniors and break down their isolation. Letter carriers could also be asked to take on the duty of monitoring and reporting conditions they consider abnormal in places where they deliver the mail.

Something can be done in this area since letter carriers interact with people in a way by providing them with a local service. Why not use that local relationship to have them play another role?

In our organization, we often hear about watchdog programs for seniors, in which people go to seniors' homes to see that they are all right. Letter carriers could just as easily perform that function, together with other resources, when they deliver the mail. Letter carriers are an important local resource. They would be a major asset in all services provided to seniors.

Something should definitely be added to the letter carrier's function, whether it be observing what goes on, reporting things as necessary, or keeping an eye open. There may be important minor points to add to break down the isolation of vulnerable seniors and to improve the service provided to them.

[Claude Godbout]

Let us go back to your question.

You mentioned a meeting with union representatives. One of the potential solutions considered was to change the Canada Post employee pension plan from a defined benefit plan to a defined contribution plan. We do not consider that a promising long-term solution.

The d'Amours report stated the following:

For a number of years, the trend has been to offer newly hired workers pension plans where they alone assume the risks. Many defined benefit plans have been converted into defined contribution plans, or a defined contribution component has been added for future service. This trend is regrettable from an intergenerational standpoint.

Newly hired workers do not receive the same level of financial security as co-workers who have been with the business longer.

New workers are barred from membership in a quality pension plan...

The report notes further on that it is much better to restructure or reform the defined benefit plan—even if it means adjusting benefits—than to change plans.

Far from abandoning these plans, we should act counter to prevailing trends and work to ensure their sustainability and viability.

I did not write that. It was the members of the expert committee who prepared the d'Amours report, well-known people from the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec, who wrote it. Alban d'Amours is a former president of the Mouvement des caisses Desjardins. All of them are specialists.

The solution may not be the best, given the structure of our corporation. The corporation partly owes its strength to defined benefit plans, even if it means they must be restructured.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

I hear you, Mr. Godbout.

Thank you.

[Claude Godbout]

We are thinking about seniors, but we are thinking about young people as well.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

I am young and I also think a lot about seniors.

I would like to turn the floor over to Mr. Collomb d'Eyrames. I saw that you wanted to speak on the social role of letter carriers.

[Olivier Collomb d’Eyrames]

I cited an example on the subject.

There was a time when Canada Post held a competition called Golden Shovels. People were encouraged to maintain the path to their home to prevent letter carriers from falling and injuring themselves. They want to avoid falling as much as seniors want to go and pick up their mail.

That is one example. Once again we see how, by taking care to protect its employees from injury, Canada Post wants people to remove snow from their sidewalks and provide clear access to mailboxes. This is also an aspect of this social connection because Canada Post employees work on city streets.

In addition, in a neighbourhood such as Limoilou, they can warn people that they will stop delivering mail because stairways are dangerous. That may be another form of pressure put on owners. In some instances, when seniors who live on the second floor request it, no one wants to listen to them. This is a good example of the social connection and an aspect of inclusion.