Government Operations Committee on May 29th, 2020

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Why do you believe the finance department has not properly funded your office?

[Karen Hogan]

I unfortunately don't know what has motivated the decisions they've made in the past. I do know that I will continue to ensure that we have adequate funding in the short term. In the long term, we'll completely push for this independent mechanism that I think will allow us to have more predictable and stable funding. I also see a desire to have Parliament involved.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

That's great.

I have a long question. A 2018 public health planning document—this is a Government of Canada regulation—says that Canada should not rely on the WHO crisis levels to make national health decisions.

An Auditor General's 2008 report said that Canada should have a comprehensive and well-documented internal process and data systems for surveillance of pandemic-type issues.

COVID-19 pandemic responses have relied on the WHO pandemic phases to launch Canadian responses. I noted a couple of meetings ago that capital spending for PHAC's health security core responsibility, as noted in the public accounts, has dropped significantly over the last four years.

Do you think such a drop in funding to PHAC has played a role in our ability to run our own surveillance rather than relying on a third party such as the WHO?

[Karen Hogan]

Any comment I might have might be personal at this point and wouldn't be based on much factual evidence, so it goes against the grain of who I am, in that I would prefer to reserve comment until I have been able to look at the government's response and preparedness for this.

I believe that as Auditor General of Canada, you have to make sure your findings are fact-based and independent, so at this time I could not comment on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

We'll go now to Mr. Kusmierczyk for five minutes, please.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Congratulations, Ms. Hogan, on your excellent appointment. I wish you well in your tenure.

During this period of COVID, many of us have adopted new ways of communicating with constituents and each other with new technologies and new methods.

How do you envision modernizing the way the Auditor General's office communicates reports and information to Canadians? Where do you see the potential, moving forward, so they can access the information and maybe understand it and engage with it in a more modern way?

[Karen Hogan]

It's definitely one of the things I've been turning my mind to a great deal and one of the ways I believe our office can modernize how it works and how it reports.

Historically we've had a very long-form technical audit report that makes sense for the subject matter experts. There is always a need for something like that, but as you've said, the reliance on IT, on social media, is completely changing. New generations are digesting information in very different ways.

One of the challenges I'd like to put to our internal folks who do communications and reporting is how we can best modify reporting or offer different opportunities and different reports that are easily digestible in different media, whether videos or pictographs. The list goes on and on, and I am definitely not an expert in communications.

I think it is an opportunity for our reports to be used by so many more people and be much more far-reaching than they are now.

Obviously asking parliamentarians how you'd like to digest information and what would work better for you is something we'd have to consider as we look at how we modify our reporting record.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you very much.

I know that connecting with the next generation is also absolutely important, and connecting with young people as well on the work of the Auditor General is important.

Will we see the AG's work on Instagram any time soon?

[Karen Hogan]

I am sure someone in our office is screaming. I don't know what they would tell me or if it's yes or no, but I'll look into that. How does that sound?

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

That's terrific.

I know the Auditor General obviously has to work very closely with many departments and ministries, and you try to balance the pressures and the additional workload your work puts on the ministries and different departments.

How do you balance that need to get information from ministries and departments and staff, and yet respect the fact that they already are dealing with quite a busy workload as well?

[Karen Hogan]

It's honestly a little bit of an art. In my previous work history, I had the opportunity to sit on both sides of that audit relationship, so I can appreciate the pros and the cons of being audited as well as being the auditor.

In my humble opinion, it starts with an excellent collaborative relationship with the people you audit. That's something we need to make sure we spend time developing and focusing on. Then it's about coming to a mutual agreement on timelines, on criteria, on how best to deal with each other's peaks and valleys of work.

It is really working together with entities and working together with Parliament regarding the timing of when we might be able to provide information. There are a lot of factors to consider, and it takes a bit of a dance or an art to get it all right. We don't always do it, but the matter is to learn from those lessons, and to improve the next time around.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

This is just a question. Do you receive feedback as well from the ministries and the staff that you work with? Does the Auditor General receive feedback from ministries and departments in terms of those collaborative efforts?

[Karen Hogan]

We absolutely do—

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Please give us a very brief answer if you could, Madam Hogan.

[Karen Hogan]

I will. Following every audit, we do have post-audit surveys and we solicit feedback. We solicit feedback throughout the audit, but we do it in a very formal fashion at the end of every single audit we do.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Great. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you.

We will now go to our final two-and-a-half-minute interventions, starting with Monsieur Barsalou-Duval.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Hogan, I have another question for you.

You said that resources and co-operation were an issue for departments. I was an auditor and I sometimes saw companies that didn't understand the role of the auditor or didn't find it important.

In these types of cases, what concrete steps do you take to obtain answers? You must do your job, which means that you need answers.

[Karen Hogan]

Our office and other officials play a role in educating people in the government about our work. An independent auditor isn't just there to find weaknesses. They can also serve as a partner in improving programs to achieve the desired results.

We must have good discussions. We must insist on having access to information and to public servants to do our job.

We've had issues in this area, but we've always been able to resolve them. I trust all the staff who work in the office and the public servants. We share a common goal of providing value added to Canadians.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Are any government departments or services more difficult to work with?

[Karen Hogan]

You could say so. In any organization or field, there are always places that present greater difficulties. Sometimes there are good reasons for this. The context must also be taken into account. Obviously, there are always difficulties.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

We will go to Mr. Green for our final intervention.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Yesterday The Canadian Press reported that the President of the Treasury Board had sent a letter to all ministers stressing the importance of documenting government decision-making, managing sensitive files securely and making best efforts to answer requests under the Access to Information Act.

Former auditor general Michael Ferguson would often stress the importance of collecting data, collecting the right data, and using the data collected effectively.

Considering the speed at which departments are taking action and the significant amounts of money being spent, are you concerned with there being a lack of data and information, and the correct data being available for you to conduct thorough audits?