Government Operations Committee on May 29th, 2020

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Okay. Thank you for that.

I want to turn now to the other important matter, which is COVID-19 spending.

Regarding an audit of the government's response to COVID-19, will the government's management of the national emergency strategic stockpile be included in your planned audit?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Could we have a very brief answer if possible?

[Karen Hogan]

I'll keep it short. Thank you.

We're in the process, as I mentioned at a previous hearing, of our steering committee looking at exactly where we might go and what we might look at. Obviously protecting health and safety is a key matter that we will be looking at.

It's a little early to decide on the exact specific areas, but preparedness and actions during the pandemic, as well as lessons learned, are definitely areas we're focusing on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

We will now go to Mr. Drouin for six minutes, please.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I, too, would like to congratulate the new Auditor General, Ms. Hogan.

Ms. Hogan, in your opening remarks, you mentioned that you would be doing an audit of the measures the government has put in place in the context of COVID-19.

Will COVID-19 affect your office? Will it prevent your office from doing its work properly?

Normally, you send auditors into the offices to do the audits. What mechanisms will be used for this audit?

[Karen Hogan]

Thank you for your kind words.

Indeed, the pandemic is having an impact on our employees. Right now, everyone is working remotely. Like many government departments, we have difficulty accessing information. Teleworking represents a change of habits for everyone, since we have to use technology to do everything virtually.

I obviously expect that there will be some slowdowns on our side, as well as on the departmental side, while everyone adjusts to the new reality over the next few months.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

When you do an audit, of course, you assess the implementation of the programs that were announced, but how do you establish criteria, for example, to determine whether a department has done a good job in achieving its objectives?

In the news we often hear about people who applied for the CERB, only to have it clawed back by the province.

How do you establish criteria to ensure that the audit and programs have achieved their objectives?

[Karen Hogan]

The criteria are an extremely important element in every audit. We agree with the target entity on the criteria we will use for accountability. We look at a number of elements, such as the money spent and the effect on Canadians.

We have also initiated discussions with deputy ministers to find out what concerns them and what the objectives for each measure are. The criteria are important, but we also need to know the objectives so that we can assess those two elements.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

You mentioned the employees. With the COVID-19 crisis, you must need more auditors to do these audits. Do you plan to make a request to the government in this regard?

[Karen Hogan]

As most members of the committee probably know, we have requested an increase in the permanent funding of the Office of the Auditor General. We are currently brainstorming creative solutions. Sometimes it's contracts; sometimes it's changing our plans. We're doing our best to make sure we have all the auditors we need to do our work.

As I mentioned in my opening statement, the decision to cancel or postpone audits is not easy, but at the moment it's the only effective solution for us.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

If I understand correctly, Ms. Hogan, as of fiscal 2018-19, you have 38 new employees in the Office of the Auditor General.

What are those 38 new employees doing? Mr. Hayes may be in a better position to answer my question.

[Karen Hogan]

I can go first, and I'll let Mr. Hayes add his comments.

Several of these new employees are part of our information technology, or IT, group, and many of them are auditors. This number seems significant, but it's not a lot, given the regular decline in our staff. People leave us on a regular basis, as they do in all organizations. Some of those 38 new employees have probably filled vacancies, but I know they've also beefed up our IT staff.

Mr. Hayes, do you have anything to add?

[Andrew Hayes]

No, thank you. That answer was complete. I have nothing more to add.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Are you having trouble recruiting new auditors, in general?

[Karen Hogan]

It's not really a secret in the auditing world; all auditors are in demand. It's a constant in our industry. Yes, it's certainly difficult, but I don't think it's worse than elsewhere. It was difficult before the pandemic and I expect it is a little bit more difficult for all organizations to hire people in the current situation.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I know that our committee—

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

We'll now go to Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

You have six minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Auditor, I congratulate you on your appointment. It is an interesting and positive one. I have worked as an auditor myself; many accountants dream of becoming the auditor general of a country like this.

Last week we learned that the former CEO of VIA Rail was hired by Siemens. We know that, at the time, Siemens managed to get a contract worth nearly $1 billion from VIA Rail, while Bombardier was in the running and wanted to make a modified bid. VIA Rail did not agree to let Bombardier make a second bid following the call for tenders.

Siemens hired the former CEO of a Canadian company, and offered him a juicy contract. This raises many questions, especially regarding the conditions surrounding the awarding of this contract to the Siemens company.

Would your office be in a position to investigate this story?

[Karen Hogan]

Of course, we don't study the hiring process as part of the financial audits. Very recently, I took part in a process that I found very rigorous. I imagine that happens at all levels, in all Crown corporations.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Actually, it's not the hiring process I'm interested in, it's the awarding of the contract. I think that has more to do with the work of your office.

[Karen Hogan]

Evaluating the awarding of contracts is something we do from time to time during our performance audits. Given your interest in this topic, I could add it to the list of possible audits.