Evidence of meeting #21 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 43rd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was requests.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Those would be very long-lived generations, Mr. Cutler, to cover 800 years.
President, Anti-Corruption and Accountability Canada
I intend to outlast them all.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much.
We'll now go to Mr. Weiler, for six minutes, please.
Liberal
Patrick Weiler Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for joining our committee today and talking about issues that are very important right now.
According to the Canadian COVID-19 Accountability Group white paper, the federal government should “educate employees about how to report wrongdoing concerning the expenditure of public funds related to this crisis, as well as the non-disclosure or manipulation of information about COVID-19.”
Mr. Dagg, how do think the federal organizations and the Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada should improve their education and training initiatives on the disclosure of wrongdoing?
As an Individual
Well, there are lots of things that could be done. The problem is that bureaucrats are good at finding ways around anything you do. There has to be a lot more public awareness because it's public awareness and using the law that make changes. If they can present to people that this is not very useful, then people won't use it.
I think the law is useful because, for example, the 800 years is really.... What about the law that says everything is public after 20 years? Nobody talked to me about that. I'm sure everything will be public after 800 years, but it won't be useful now, and that's part of the problem.
Liberal
Patrick Weiler Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
What about training and education initiatives on the disclosure of wrongdoing?
As an Individual
Part of the problem there is that public servants know that their jobs are on the line. You have to change the bureaucratic culture to give public servants some kind of protection and reward so that they will feel free to do it. I've talked to Mr. Cutler. What happened to him when he spoke up? He was basically sidelined in his career and punished pension-wise.
Liberal
Patrick Weiler Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
I'm going to switch gears a bit. This question is for Mr. Holman.
Obviously, the pandemic has caused a big change in the working conditions of our public service. During a pandemic, which factors make it difficult for teleworking employees to complete access to information requests?
Member and Associate Professor of Journalism, Mount Royal University, Canadian COVID-19 Accountability Group
I think the Information Commissioner did an excellent job of outlining those factors. Given the fact that employees are working from home, they perhaps do not have ready access to some records and documents or perhaps the networks that they're accessing those records and documents through are not secure. This all impacts the ability of public employees to actually fulfill their obligations under the Access to Information Act.
That being said, I think this also points to a problem that has long existed with the access to information system, which is the need for better record-keeping in government. When the Access to Information Act was introduced and, indeed, when freedom of information was being discussed between 1965 and the time that the Access to Information Act was passed, there was a substantive discussion and debate about the need for better record-keeping, for more disclosure about the kinds of records the government had at its disposal and for ready access to those records. Unfortunately, those recommendations were never adhered to. Here we are, living in a digital age, and we still have the same problem.
I really encourage this committee to study the issue of record-keeping in government. It's not sexy, but it does go to Canadians' fundamental right to know and allowing them to exercise that.
Liberal
Patrick Weiler Liberal West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
Mr. Holman, according to your white paper, the federal government should “implement broad, urgently needed public and private sector whistleblower protections, helping those who serve the public interest by reporting wrongdoing.” How should PSDPA be amended to appropriately protect whistle-blowers?
Member and Associate Professor of Journalism, Mount Royal University, Canadian COVID-19 Accountability Group
That's a very good question. This committee has actually assembled, as one of your members just mentioned, an extensive list of recommendations on how Canada's whistle-blower law can be improved. The government should act on those recommendations. This isn't rocket science. In many ways it has the same problems as the Access to Information Act. We know what needs to be done. We know what changes need to take place. We just need to act on those changes.
As an example, broadening the definition of what constitutes a reportable wrongdoing would dramatically help improve our whistle-blower law, because at the present moment a lot of the complaints we're seeing don't cross that threshold. That's a problem. We also need to expand the definition of who constitutes a whistle-blower so that it includes retired employees, former employees and private contractors.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much.
Ms. Vignola, you have the floor for six minutes.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you very much.
Mr. Cutler, as you were saying in your presentation, having listened to Ms. Maynard has made you understand certain factors. She mentioned needs in human and material resources.
What are your suggestions to make the system work better? Are Ms. Maynard's requests in line with yours? Are they realistic?
President, Anti-Corruption and Accountability Canada
One thing that Madam Maynard said really struck home. Towards the end of her statement, she said that the people who work in the office want to give out the information and that the people at the top say the same thing. This sounds like the whistle-blowing dilemma or the information dilemma: The people at the top say it, but they don't do it. They don't live it and don't believe it, but they can say the right words. We have too much of what I call political correctness at the top, and the people down below know that if they do what they want to do, somebody is going to criticize them.
There's a real fear in the thing. The biggest change would be to pass legislation and protect them. Protect them against retaliation.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Okay.
In French, we have an expression to the effect that the talk is not being walked.
President, Anti-Corruption and Accountability Canada
It's the same thing in English.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
There is a lot of talk, but little action. You just said safeguards would be needed. Does the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act not provide those safeguards to employees who would like to do their job properly?
What improvements could you suggest?
President, Anti-Corruption and Accountability Canada
The first thing I would do, as far as whistle-blowing or anything like this goes, is to put the onus on management, the people up above, to prove that they have not retaliated against a whistle-blower. Whistle-blowers come forward and then experience retaliation. When they say they've seen retaliation, what it is.... Who controls the records? Who controls all of the job situations? It's the people above them. They don't have access to the proof of what's been going on. The onus has to be reversed. You have to prove you did not do it, from a higher level. That's the most important item of all the items, in my opinion.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Cutler.
Mr. Holman, among your suggestions were performance-based pay and disclosures to make information transparent. I understand that may encourage people to disclose actions, but would there not be a higher risk of false reports? How could false reports be avoided?
Member and Associate Professor of Journalism, Mount Royal University, Canadian COVID-19 Accountability Group
That's a really good question. I think at the present moment in time we don't know the answer, because we haven't implemented such a system.
We do know that financial protections for whistle-blowers, financial incentives for whistle-blowers, have worked in other jurisdictions, including in the United States. There's been a lot of talk in this country about the fact that first responders are brave; first responders are our heroes. Whistle-blowers are another form of first responders. They are alerting us to problems within public sector and private sector institutions, and yet we are doing very little to actually protect them. Part of that protection is financial incentives for whistle-blowing. In a lot of cases, there can be very severe career repercussions for whistle-blowers when they do make that act of disclosure.
I'm sure everyone in this room has seen, for example, the movie The Insider. It's about the famous whistle-blower who came forward about the risks of smoking and cigarettes. That's not just a movie; that's reality for most whistle-blowers. We should be attuned to that reality and protect the bravery of first responders—first responders who disclose to the public the information that they need to know.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you very much.
Mr. Dagg, concerning requests, you said that there was already a backlog. It may have been naive of me, but I thought the legislation was clear on maximum time frames for responses to be provided.
Given the situation surrounding COVID-19, what kind of delays do you expect when it comes to requests? How could those delays be minimized?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Unfortunately, Mr. Dagg, we're completely out of time. I would like to hear your answer, but we have time constraints. I would ask you to please provide that answer in writing as soon as possible to the clerk of this committee for dissemination to all our committee members. That would be much appreciated.
We will now go to Mr. Green for six minutes, please.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Respecting the fact that we are getting into the second half of this meeting and that I'm fourth in the order, I'm going to go ahead and table my motion at this time.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Please go ahead, Mr. Green. I will stop the time.
If possible, give a quick summary of your motion. If that's not possible, I do know that you have distributed it to all members of the committee. It is in order, it is admissible, it is amendable and it is debatable. If you want to give the summary, go ahead. If not, you can just go into the motion itself and the reasons for presenting it.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Just out of courtesy to my committee, I'll read out the motion. Then I will relinquish my time so that members have the ability to question the witnesses who have signed on today.
The motion is as follows:
That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a), the committee send for documents from Public Service and Procurement Canada (PSPC) containing the following disaggregated data related to businesses owned by under-represented groups (Black, indigenous, women, and persons with disabilities) who have engaged with PSPC with regard to the federal government’s response to COVID-19: (a) (i) how many companies from underrepresented groups have secured contracts with PSPC, (ii) the value of these contracts, (iii) the number of businesses from under represented groups screened and approved as credited vendors, (iv) number and value of set aside contracts for these businesses, (v) the number of sub-contracts entered into; (b), the committee requests from Employment and Social Development Canada (“ESDC”) the production of all papers and records, in unredacted form, relating to the Federal Contractors Program, and in particular: (i) all current, signed Agreements to Implement Employment Equity (“Agreements”); (ii) the most current list of contractors covered by said Agreements; (iii) the most current compliance documentation furnished by each contractor covered by an Agreement, including the goal-setting report, achievement table, workforce analysis, revised goals for remaining gaps in representation, and any explanatory material; (iv) the most current documentation of ESDC’s compliance assessment for each contractor covered by an Agreement; (v) the most recent Limited Eligibility to Bid List; (vi) all documentation filed in an appeal of a finding of non-compliance by a contractor to the Minister; (vii) all documentation connected to an independent review of an appeal; (viii) any documentation internal to ESDC assessing or evaluating the Federal Contractors Program; and that the committee receive these documents, papers and records no later than Monday, August 31, 2020.