Government Operations Committee on May 12th, 2021

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, I have a deep amount of respect for my friend Minister Duclos, but I also have limited time, and he has an ability to really stretch, so I'm just going to bring it back to my line of questioning, if I could.

I want to shift gears a bit about the expectation for the full implementation of the Pay Equity Act. As the President of Treasury Board will know, there is a significant Black class action lawsuit that identifies as a particular point of interest and negotiation the ability for self-declaration and a call for the federal government to amend the self-declaration of “visible minority” to create a separate category for Black employees. In his remarks, my good friend Mr. Kusmierczyk talked about disaggregated data.

For the interest of a good-faith conversation around the issue, understanding that this request is coming from the Black class action, has the Treasury Board looked at this and at preliminary steps towards the ability for desegregated categories as that relates to not just Black employees but all employees, to be able to ensure that there is an accurate reflection of perhaps some of the barriers or challenges that are faced by the public sector workforce?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Matthew, you're asking about three different things.

On the first one about the Pay Equity Act, which was passed in the earlier mandate—unfortunately, you were not here yet—you're obviously aware that this law was given royal assent in December 2018, and we looked forward to implementing this in the fall of 2020. Just a few months ago, a set of proposed regulations was published so that up to 1.3 million Canadians could at some point, when these regulations are approved, benefit from proactive wage equity opportunities.

The second thing is about the Employment Equity Act. I am supporting my colleague Minister Tassi in reviewing that act for the purposes that you have highlighted.

The third thing is about the class action and the importance of recognizing that there have been barriers over the past in people fulfilling their full potential. I'll turn quickly to Tolga Yalkin so that he can perhaps outline where we are at this particular stage.

[Tolga Yalkin]

Yes, thank you, Minister. Very briefly, I have some elaborations on your remarks.

When it comes to the Employment Equity Act review, certainly we are supporting our colleagues at Labour Canada, but we're also, in a sense, not waiting for any changes to the Employment Equity Act, both to, as we've already discussed, release disaggregated data, but also to offer opportunities for public servants to self-identify at the subgroup level.

When it comes to the work that is ongoing in the context of Thompson and Diallo in the class action, certainly, as the minister has identified, we are aware and conscious that there are issues and opportunities and challenges when it comes to racism and discrimination in all organizations, including ours. We're approaching the exploratory discussions with the plaintiffs' counsel in that spirit. It's very early days yet, but we look forward to continuing this discussion with them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Yalkin.

We'll now go to Mr. McCauley for five minutes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Minister, welcome back. It's nice to see you well.

Did the Canada emergency wage subsidy go through the standard Treasury Board approval process?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I was looking forward to being back and in particular to exchanges with you, Kelly.

On the Canada emergency wage subsidy, as you will remember, that was voted on in Parliament, so—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

No, I recognize that. Did it go through the standard Treasury Board approval process?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Maybe I should turn at some point to Glenn Purves, who will be happy to distinguish between voted and statutory expenditures. That might be useful to the members of the committee.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Right. As a new spending program under the Financial Administration Act, my understanding is that the wage subsidy program would have had to go through the standard Treasury Board approval process.

The reason I'm asking is that we've all seen the reports. It's the largest of the COVID spending at $100 billion. We've seen the reports recently, obviously, of wealthy hedge funds receiving the money and profitable companies receiving taxpayers' money.

Did it go through the usual Treasury Board approval process?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

You're right in saying this is an extremely important part of our pandemic response to the economic crisis. It helped, if I remember well, over five million workers to keep their jobs—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Sir, I'm aware of the program. Please, could you answer the question? Did it go through the regular, proper Treasury Board approval process? It's $100 billion. Did it go through the process? Did you approve it?

What do you think of the news that money is going to wealthy hedge funds and profitable companies? It seems that taxpayers' money has just been going out the door without proper oversight.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That's very good. There are two parts to your question. The first one is the impact of that program. I would be happy, as you might have noted, to speak about the incredibly important and positive impact—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

It's a very simple question. Did this $100-billion program go through the standard Treasury Board approval process? Were any exemptions granted from policy for this $100 billion?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That was the first part of my answer. If you are interested, I would be certainly very interested in talking about it—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Again, I'd be interested in the answer.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

The second part of the question is about the distinction between voted and statutory expenditures. These are called statutory expenditures. I would turn to Glenn Purves to make sure that every member of the committee understands the difference between the two.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Did it go through the process? Were any exemptions granted on this?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Glenn, I don't see you on the screen, but I think you are there.

[Glenn Purves, Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat]

I am here.

I don't have the answer to that question.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay, let me just stop you both right here.

It's a $100 billion of taxpayers' money. Billions have gone to hedge funds. Billions have gone to profitable companies. For one of them, their market cap has gone up $9 billion since COVID started. You're saying that neither of you have an answer as to whether this $100 billion went through the standard Treasury Board approval process and whether any of this was granted exemptions going through the process.

Do you understand my concern?

[Glenn Purves]

Minister Duclos is correct in the sense there are appropriations that go for spending authority and then there are statutory authorities that have various authorities built into the legislation.

If there was any step that involved the Treasury Board, certainly the authorities would have been secured before any money flowed. I'm just saying that it's a different path.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

It's $100 billion. Who is reviewing this money if TBS is not doing it?

I'm going to quote TBS's reason for being. It “provides oversight of government financial management, spending”. The FAA, subsection 7.1(1), lays out administration of policy and oversight of expenditures. We have $100 billion going out and we can't get a simple answer of whether this went through the Treasury Board approval process and if any exemptions were granted.

Were exemptions granted for any of the other COVID spending from the standard Treasury Board approval process?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Mr. Purves is explaining to us and to you the distinction between expenditures voted and legislated in the House of Commons. We're all members of Parliament, so through our role as members of Parliament, we had not only the opportunity, but the responsibility to express our views on whether these expenditures were warranted—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Do you think it's appropriate that taxpayers' money went to wealthy hedge funds?

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. McCauley.