Government Operations Committee on May 26th, 2021

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thanks for that question.

First, I would say the COVID pandemic really intensified our determination to modernize and transform our IT systems and also showed what can be done when we're focused and are able to really throw everything at providing a solution—because that's exactly what SSC did.

I want to just reinforce how proud I am of the public servants in digital government and the type of commitment that they showed.

Second, I'm working up a strategy and a road map going forward. We haven't actually made that public yet, but we have a very coordinated and, I would say, strategic approach. We're not just looking at how we modernize big legacy systems—and goodness knows we inherited many of those—but we're also looking at how we can improve the service experience that Canadians have when they do their transactions.

Third, we have to shift to platform approaches, which I've spoken about a couple of times. That is a complex task that SSC is very involved with, and digital government provides direction and policy advice on that.

Lastly, we're tackling the barriers to change that are inherent in a siloed ministerial structure of government.

It's not one thing or another. We're looking to move down a path, a road map of change that will really transform how the Government of Canada operates with respect to digital. I think Canadians deserve no less. We want to be providing services with the kind of experience they have from some services in the private sector. We want to do that kind of job for people in Canada, as the Government of Canada.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

You pretty much answered my second question as well, which is how we will support departments as COVID-19 restrictions ease. You've answered that by talking about what a digitally enabled workforce means to you, and what you think the public service will look like after the pandemic.

Is there anything else that maybe you haven't had a chance to provide us with in terms of a glimpse of what that public service workforce could look like after the restrictions ease?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thanks for that question.

I think we still have a lot of work to do to bring our systems, our tools, into the modern era.

One thing that happened because of COVID-19, when public servants overnight had to move to working from home when all of their tools and equipment were in their offices, is that we very quickly rolled out digital collaboration tools like Microsoft 365, which they hadn't had access to before.

In 2016, when we became government, it was shocking how many public servants were still using decades' old land lines and just didn't have tools to enable them to work together, certainly not remotely. That's one thing that will be different. People will be able to do their jobs, potentially, in a hybrid system, where they are sometimes in the office and sometimes at home.

I also want to point out that one of the big challenges has been the proliferation of data centres that are aging and create risk for the applications that are housed in them. This has been a very big priority for Shared Services Canada. It has been closing down many of those smaller data centres and creating enterprise centres or cloud services so that the applications can be more cost-effectively housed, more secure and more effective for the departments that are using them.

That work is ongoing and has a number of years still to go, but we have $37.3 million in our estimates right now to continue that work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Kusmierczyk.

With that, we come to the end of the hour and, Minister, we'd like to thank you for your appearance before the committee today.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

It's always a pleasure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

With that said, we look forward to seeing you again when it comes to the supplementary estimates.

We will now continue with the officials for the second hour. As I look at the time and being respectful of that and the fact that we would like to cover the issue of the main estimates at the end of the meeting today, I'm going to say that we'll go with the first round of six minutes each, but in the second round, we will go to three minutes for everybody, and we will go the Conservatives, the Liberals, then the Bloc and then the NDP. That way, hopefully, we will be within our time constraints to move forward.

We'll start with Ms. Harder.

I'm sorry. I believe that she's changed that to Mr. Paul-Hus, if I'm correct.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

That's correct.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

We'll go to Mr. Paul-Hus for six minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Mr. Glover.

I would like to come back to Huawei. The TVA network in Quebec broadcast a one-hour documentary entitled La brèche, in which experts explained the extent of Huawei's deployment in Canada. There were even national security experts who said in the report that the battle had been lost when it came to telecommunications and that Huawei had truly taken control of the network. I am not talking about the 5G network; I am talking about the network that is in place right now.

I would like to come back to the fact that you have to change the Government of Canada telecommunication systems.

Can you confirm that Huawei will be excluded from the network so the government can start protecting itself?

[Paul Glover]

Thank you for your question.

I want to be as clear as possible. I know it's implied in the question, but my mandate is for government only, so there are other things going on in broader society I'm not able to comment on.

With respect to all procurement for the Government of Canada, our policy is to apply full supply chain integrity end to end, and only companies that are able to pass that supply chain integrity will be allowed into the government ecosystem. It would be inappropriate for me to predetermine the outcome of any of those supply chain integrity processes, but to date, I can reassure you that we have no engagements with Huawei.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

My second question is as follows.

Can you explain why a government like the Government of Ontario, which is inviting bids for computer networking, is accepting competitors of Cisco, such as Juniper and Extreme, but at Shared Services Canada you are still concentrating your purchasing with Cisco?

[Paul Glover]

Thank you for your question.

It is not appropriate for me to talk about matters that involve other levels of government.

I feel it would be inappropriate for me to speculate on the motives of other levels of government. I'm happy to testify with respect to my mandate.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Glover, excuse me. We often hear answers like this in various committees, but you are in the Government of Canada, in Shared Services Canada. You handle equipment renewal, computer and telephone equipment maintenance. When we talk about purchasing, however, you shift responsibility to another department.

The impression we end up with is that it is never the person's fault when there are problems.

Do you not have a responsibility? Your minister has left, but is your department, Shared Services Canada, not responsible for providing advice about purchasing and making sure that the Government of Canada gets the most effective equipment?

Is that not how it works? Do you work in isolation?

Please explain the situation quickly to me.

[Paul Glover]

Absolutely. Shared Services is responsible for all IT-related procurement—email, telephone, compute data centres—for the entire Government of Canada. We do all of that on behalf of all ministries. Some things, like our cloud services, are available to other levels of government, and when they ask, we are happy to provide advice to them.

I might ask Marc Brouillard, who sits on the CIO council, which has the provinces and territories, if there's anything he would like to add.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I am coming back to my initial question about purchases. I am asking whether you can purchase equipment other than Cisco and you are telling me that it is not your responsibility. You are referring to Public Services and Procurement Canada, if I understand correctly.

For your part, however, you do not have a word to say about the equipment you need?

[Paul Glover]

You have my apologies, Mr. Chair, if I didn't address that part of the question.

Without a doubt, we do not have a particular bias for any one vendor. We have a bias for the requirements and the outcome. Our responsibility is to keep the systems up and running.

I fully acknowledge, which was part of the material I shared with committee members earlier, that we inherited an awful lot of Cisco equipment from the departments—absolutely—so when it comes to break/fix, there is an awful lot of like-for-like Cisco replacement. I fully acknowledge that, but as I've pointed out, moving forward we are increasing the open competition.

There are four areas—Wi-Fi, remote access, load balancers and firewall—where Cisco was the predominant supplier. They are no longer the predominant supplier. In some cases, they are not a supplier at all in those areas.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Could you give the committee the complete list of the contracts that have been awarded to Cisco over the last five years, please?

[Paul Glover]

There's none. We do not deal with Cisco. We deal with resellers.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Who are these resellers?

[Paul Glover]

A number of vendors are resellers. We would be happy to provide that list. For clarity, we do not deal directly with Cisco. We deal with resellers.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I would like to get the list of resellers so we can understand the organization and understand how the connection is made between Cisco and these resellers.

My time is up.

Thank you.

[Paul Glover]

Yes, we will do that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.

We'll now go to Mr. Drouin for five minutes.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Is it not six minutes, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

You are correct. I apologize. Yes, it's six minutes, Mr. Drouin.