Government Operations Committee on May 26th, 2021

[Marc Brouillard]

Thank you, Paul.

Yes, we joke that some of the systems that run the old age security are ready for old age security. These are mainframe solutions that were written way before DOS on COBOL and other legacy platforms. There's probably some DOS in there somewhere. I don't know of any specific examples, but it would not surprise me. We have some of everything somewhere within the government.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Given that in the past several months we've seen major IT cyber-attacks against Microsoft and SolarWinds, and we've had significant impacts on governments and businesses around the world, how concerned should Canadians be that our aging IT infrastructure is increasingly vulnerable to these attacks, particularly referencing that we might have some old age, OAS-type infrastructure out there?

[Paul Glover]

Mr. Chair, I'll start, and I would ask Marc to complement my answer.

I really don't want to jinx this, but we are very fortunate, through the creation of Shared Services Canada many years ago, to have consolidated what we call our “perimeter defence”. We go to great lengths to make sure that it continues to be as robust as possible.

We have extensive programs to patch, and that is part of why, when we talk about interoperability, there are times when I become a little hesitant, because we need to move at speed at scale when some of these events take place. Having to work with too many vendors can compromise our ability to work at speed at scale.

That is an example of that balance that I'm constantly trying to strike between competition, value for money and the risks that come with that, with respect to interoperability and moving at speed at scale, but—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'll accept that, but what I do have a hard time accepting is that I'm almost two years in now and we're talking about these old systems, going back to the DOS and some of these old ones. How high on your priority list is it to have these switched over? Do they present a risk?

[Paul Glover]

They are some of our highest priorities. Security is the number one priority, particularly as we move to digital. Second after that is modernizing. These systems may be getting close to their end of life. They need to be replaced. They need to be upgraded. They may have single points of failure. We work to build redundancy and those sorts of things. It is absolutely, from SSC's point of view, the priority.

I know that the chief information officer for Canada probably has more to say.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[Marc Brouillard]

Absolutely. Security is paramount. Monitoring for those risks is also paramount.

The interesting thing is that sometimes, when the technology gets so old, they become things that hackers don't go after anymore. The biggest risk is the things that are widely deployed but are not patched and are not on the current versions. That's some of the stuff that Paul's organization and the CCCS monitor very closely, because we have to be aware of what the threats are and make sure the systems are patched to accommodate them.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Do we still have stuff hanging out on floppy discs? Are we still using the—

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

Thank you, Mr. Brouillard. I appreciate that.

That ends the first round. We'll now go to the second round, which will be the Conservatives, the Liberals, the Bloc and then the NDP, with three minutes each.

We will start with Mr. McCauley, with three minutes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Witnesses, thank you very much for your comments. There were a lot better answers in this second half.

Mr. Glover, I have a quick question for you, and maybe you can provide it to the committee later, because I don't expect you to have it. I know you didn't set the definition of “sole source”, but when we're directing suppliers to use a Cisco product, I know that's not included in the sole-source part.

Can you provide the committee with what percentage of that 98% is competitively bid but goes to bid with a named product, whether it's Cisco, Microsoft, etc.? You can just get back to us later.

I'm going to give you a break for the rest of my time, because I'd like to introduce my motion, which I have on order from Friday, please.

I can go ahead and read it into the record, or what would you like, sir?

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Mr. McCauley, if you want to read that into the record, please go ahead.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

This one we put on the Order Paper a couple of days ago:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a), the Committee send for, from Global Affairs Canada, the unredacted documents relating to the contract to Mr. Kyle Kemper for the Crypto Valley Blockchain Conference in Zug Switzerland; that the documents be provided in both official languages no later than 6:00 p.m. ET, on Monday, May 31, 2021; and that the documents be posted on the committee’s website.

I will note that Mr. Kemper has already commented on this motion and that he asks that the information be provided. In fact, he says it's a great example of how we need more accountability and transparency in government. I'm hoping that we can get this approved quickly and get it put on our website, so that we can move forward with the rest of today's committee meeting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. McCauley.

With that said, I will ask for input. I see that Mr. Drouin's hand is up.

Mr. Drouin.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I'm a little, not shocked.... I'll just say I'm puzzled as to why Mr. McCauley would want the details of those contracts. It's pretty old news.

It was reported, I think, in July 2020. I'm wondering if he believes there were some kind of shenanigans that happened. He knows the procurement rules around contracts valued under $25,000. They are under a delegated authority. The minister does not sign off on that. If he has concerns, Mr. McCauley knows very well he could have written to the procurement ombudsman, who could have done an investigation.

In fact, we had them before committee not too long ago, and they clearly outlined the steps they can take in order to look at that.

If Mr. McCauley is advancing this because he believes that contracts under $25,000 should be transparent, then I would challenge him and say, well, perhaps he wants to see all contracts under $25,000. They are published on a website, which is why we know that the value was around $12,000, I believe.

I am confused as to the—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'll be happy to respond really quickly, if you wish.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I'll cede my time at some point, Mr. McCauley.

I'm sure you'll get to—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

It will take me 10 seconds to respond. I'm not looking for the contracts. We're looking for the unredacted documents regarding the contract. It's not the contracts. I'm sorry if you misheard or misunderstood the motion.

We have two pages of an ATIP with things that were redacted that we'd like to have unredacted. That's all.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

If I can continue, I understand that Mr. McCauley may be interested in an account number, for instance, that would be—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

No.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

—included in a purchase order. Obviously, that would be part—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

That's not the case.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

—of a contract.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Order please, Mr. McCauley. I'd ask you to allow Mr. Drouin to finish.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

If Mr. McCauley is interested in cellphone material, then obviously that would be redacted. If Mr. McCauley is interested in the private address of an individual, then obviously, as he knows full well, that would be redacted.

I am confused about just what the opposition Conservatives are trying to do. We have just gone through months and months of their trying to tarnish the reputation of the Prime Minister's family. They've gone through months in committee tarnishing the reputation of Prime Minister Trudeau's family. When we give these particular issues to non-partisan officials of Parliament, then we can have trust.

I would strongly encourage.... If Mr. McCauley is trying to say that there has been something wrong with this particular contract, which ministers don't even see and ministers' staff don't see—deputy ministers don't see it, assistant deputy ministers don't see it and I would argue that perhaps the deputy director general may see or sign off on it—I'm confused. As the government is spending $300 billion on recovery and whatnot, as we've heard the opposition claim in the House of Commons, he's interested in a $12,000 contract. Out of all the expenditures of the Government of Canada, Mr. McCauley is interested in a $12,000 contract.

Mr. Chair, I have to say that we cannot support a motion such as this. They're trying to go on a wild goose chase and to make false accusations, but I'm confident that the processes worked. I'm confident that there has not been anything...and if Mr. McCauley really wants to get to the bottom of this, then I encourage him to write to the procurement ombudsman, which is a non-partisan arm of government. They can do an investigation, if he feels that there has been some type of wrongdoing with a particular contract.

I'll just leave it at that, Mr. Chair, and I'll cede my time to my colleague.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Drouin.

I see that we have Mr. McCauley up to speak.