Government Operations Committee on May 26th, 2021

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

What would that represent in terms of the overall spend?

[Paul Glover]

I don't have that breakdown, but that would be part of the 98%.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I think Ms. Vignola in her previous line of questioning certainly brought up some basic questions that average Canadians would also want to know about. So that we're not losing the plot in terms of where we are with Cisco and how some technologies tend to dominate the IT sphere, I think that it would be incumbent on Mr. Glover to return back with that. Within the 98%, I request that he return back with an analysis of how much of that would be related to the scenario that Ms. Vignola laid out. It doesn't just have to be Cisco. It could be others where the third party vendors are essentially doubling back to the same technologies.

I'll continue. How do we ensure that while we transition away from legacy systems we're looking at a wider variety of vendors?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thanks for that. A commitment that I have as a minister is absolutely that we have opportunities for open and transparent procurement right across the vendor space, and that's why, as I mentioned, we're working with some of the associations representing indigenous, Black, and women-owned businesses.

I also quoted the CEO of Technation, Angela Mondou, earlier, and here's another aspect of her thoughts about this. She said that the pandemic has been an instrumental catalyst to driving digital transformation and bolstering collaboration between government and the tech sector in support of our nation's economic recovery and resilience.

We work closely with the stakeholder community, and we're very interested in providing opportunities to a variety of businesses.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

If I could, as my time winds down...and I certainly wouldn't wish to be as sharp as our committee colleague Ms. Harder. I'll finish with a comment. It's not a question, so you don't have to respond. What I didn't hear there was a really compelling plan for how to move away from legacy programs.

This is an “I” statement. I feel as though given how far we are into this and given that the last time you were here and even in our first meetings we discussed just how redundant some of this old technology was, I would have hoped that two years into this we would have a clearer plan and not just the talking points. I'm just saying this as a comment. I'll share with you that it's my opinion that the talking points don't really fully address some of the substantive issues we're bringing up within this committee.

I'll hand back the rest of my time and hope that the minister can provide us greater clarity and higher specificity, given the technological nature of her file.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

There goes the timer for your six minutes at this very point.

We've finished the first round. We'll now go to the second round. We'll start with Ms. Harder for five minutes.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, one of the things that you said earlier during my line of questioning was this: “We work with associations of Black, BIPOC, indigenous and women-led businesses so that we can understand their areas of strength and interest and we can make sure that our procurement is as diverse as possible.”

I'm wondering, Minister, if you'd be willing to share with this committee information regarding any contracts that have been awarded to members of the list that you provided there.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

As I mentioned previously, Ms. Harder, I am not involved in individual contract decisions or procurements.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you. I understand that, but through your department, can you not provide us with a list of individuals who would fit the description that I just read back to you?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

I'm very happy to ask Deputy Glover to provide any information that he can on that level.

[Paul Glover]

Thank you, Minister.

In 2019, to indigenous-led businesses, we issued 117 contracts worth $35.8 million. Our systems at that time did not identify businesses as being Black or women-led. We are working to update that so that we will have more complete information not just on the associations we're working with but also on the contracts awarded to them.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Mr. Glover, it's so good that you're here. Thank you.

Minister, one of the other things you said was that you're following a “clear set of processes” whenever a sole-source contract is granted. Mr. Glover echoed these words. However, my question is not for him; it's for you.

Minister, would you be able to provide the committee with a copy of this clear set of processes?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Absolutely.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

That's perfect.

Maybe you could provide a short description of what that clear process looks like. What criteria do you look at in order to determine if a sole-source contract should be granted?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

We're happy to follow up with that.

Ms. Harder, I think another impressive aspect of what we're doing from a procurement perspective is that in the fiscal year 2019-20, 97% of SSC contracts were awarded to SMEs. It was 97%, and I believe that—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I'm sorry, Minister, but my question had nothing to do with that. I was wondering if you could expand on what criteria you use in order to determine the granting of a sole-source contract. You said it was done only under exceptional circumstances. Why? What criteria do you use, then, to determine what, in fact, is an exceptional circumstance?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you for that question. I'll ask Deputy Glover to provide the criteria that are used within SSC.

[Paul Glover]

Thank you for the question.

It is operational requirements. It would have to do with the urgency and the criticality of the government infrastructure and the services to Canadians. If that infrastructure is at risk, or there are limited numbers of vendors who are able to provide the support and services, those are examples of the process that is used.

It goes through a governance committee, at which it is challenged and reviewed by people outside SSC to make sure that we are objective and transparent in what we are doing.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Minister, are the criteria used for granting a sole-source contract consistent each time a contract is awarded?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thanks for that question. That's the purpose of having a framework for accountability on these matters. It would be consistent.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Minister, who determines the list of criteria or the framework that you're referencing?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thanks for that question. It is Deputy Glover who can answer in detail how it was put together.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

No, I just was wondering who signs off on it.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

I'll ask Deputy Glover to answer your question.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

No, I'm sorry, Minister—