Government Operations Committee on June 2nd, 2021

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I appreciate the opportunity to take a trip down memory lane. Back when I was a city councillor here in Hamilton, we led an ambitious program to look at surplus city lands that we could provide to social housing and affordable housing providers.

I see on page 31, “PSPC will continue working with partners on the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation...led Federal Lands Initiative...which makes surplus federal real property available for re-purposing for affordable housing.” It states that they have “a target of 4,000 new or renovated housing units” and that they contributed, in 2020, “15 properties to the FLI to be assessed by CMHC for suitability for affordable housing, for a total of 75 since the inception of the program in 2018.”

I was excited originally, and then I got into the details and saw that over 10 years they were looking at $200 million to be used to subsidize these transfers of lands. I'm left with some pretty significant questions here. I think in my short time of four years as a city councillor, I delivered maybe half a dozen properties or so over to social housing here in Hamilton, yet across the country this seems to be a bit of a drop in the bucket.

To begin, I just want to ask the ADM, Mr. Matthews, how many properties are being slated for the transfer to the FLI.

First of all, how many surplus properties are there? Let's start there.

[Bill Matthews]

I'd have to get back to the member in writing with an actual list of the number in surplus, but we're happy to do that.

I think there is an ongoing assessment because a lot of questions are being asked about the future of work and what kind of space the federal government will need, so that list may grow as the future evolves.

When we do identify a property as surplus, though, it doesn't go right to social housing. There is, obviously, some consultation that has to take place, which takes a fair amount of time to ensure that there is no indigenous interest, etc. I think it frequently surprises people just how long that process takes.

The other point I should mention is suitability, which the member already touched on. It is quite a process that it goes through.

I'll wrap up quickly here.

The other point is that when we are disposing through the Canada Lands Company, the Canada Lands Company also redevelops property and dedicates a certain percentage—and I'm going from memory here—10%, for affordable housing as well. That's another lever the federal government can use in terms of building that program.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Just to be clear, you're defining affordability as what we called inclusionary zoning, which is that just 30% of the units must have affordable options, so 70% are at profit. Could you provide us with an insight on just who these properties are being transferred to? Are they transferred to non-profits or to development companies that are then providing, within inclusionary zoning, an earmark of 30% affordability, that is, 30% of the units being affordable?

[Bill Matthews]

There are two kinds of avenues there. One is through Canada Lands, which would develop. The other is through the CMHC program that has been mentioned.

The main job for PSPC in this area is to identify surplus properties and then to make sure all are consulted on what might be done with them. Our main role here is the identification of the property itself and to make sure we follow the proper process from a disposal perspective to ensure we know who is interested.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Would you, when you're providing this in writing, because this is something I'm keenly interested in.... Again, we were very successful municipally here, seemingly at a much faster pace than what we've been able to do federally. Could you provide in writing how many federal surplus lands might be in the GTHA? I know that municipalities would be looking potentially to partner and play a role in that. I'd be keenly interested to know how many are here in Hamilton, although I suspect there's not a tremendous amount.

Also, when you reply in writing, could you also provide us with a context for exactly who these are being transferred to and what the $200 million looks like in terms of the so-called subsidy? Is this in closing fees, consulting fees or legal fees, or is this the valuation of the actual total properties over 10 years?

[Bill Matthews]

There's a lot in there, Mr. Chair.

We will absolutely get a list of surplus properties. It hasn't been determined who they're going to yet, so maybe it would be helpful if we could give a list of surplus properties that have also been disposed of, looking backward just to get a sense, but we will split the current list by geography.

I think it might also be useful for members if we were to include just the key steps in the disposal process, just so members can appreciate why it takes time to go through this process.

As for the $200 million, just by way of example, in the most recent one involving Canada Lands, we offered up some funding to basically remediate some environmental issues on the property as part of the transfer, but there are other examples as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Matthews.

Thank you, Mr. Green.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's very helpful.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

With that, we have come to the end of our questioning.

I want to thank Mr. Matthews, Mr. Vandergrift and Mr. Zielonka for being with us today.

I appreciate your coming back to our meetings when we ask you to be here. You are free to go.

That said, the public portion of our meeting is now complete. We will proceed to the in camera portion.

When I suspend the meeting, technical staff will end this part of the Zoom. Therefore, every member will need to log off and then log back in using the Zoom identification and passcode sent to you by the clerk.

With that, I will suspend temporarily.

[Proceedings continue in camera]