Evidence of meeting #101 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michel Lafleur  Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Stephanie Bond

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I call this meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 101 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, also known as the mighty OGGO, the only committee that matters.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, October 17, 2022, the committee is meeting on the study of the ArriveCAN application.

Please do not put your headsets anywhere near the microphones, as that could cause potential ear damage to our very valued translators.

Before I turn the floor over to Mr. Lafleur for his opening statement, I will let you know that in the last 20 minutes we will do committee business. We just need to approve a couple of budgets quickly. I'll go to Mr. Bachrach first for his Canada Post motion, as he kindly pushed that back from last time so that we could have our full time with Mr. Jeglic.

Mr. Lafleur, we'll start with you, please, for your opening statement. Go ahead, sir.

11 a.m.

Michel Lafleur Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I first want to acknowledge that this meeting is taking place on the traditional, unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

As executive director of the professional integrity division at the Canada Border Services Agency, my responsibilities include providing an independent investigation function for the agency. My team conducts investigations into allegations of employee misconduct and provides management with reports of our findings to allow them to address instances of misconduct in the workplace.

The process of investigating allegations takes time and requires a systematic approach to ensure that all evidence is properly gathered and considered prior to final conclusions being made.

Policies and procedures relating to internal investigations are issued under the authority of the chief security officer of the CBSA and are aligned with the policy on government security, which requires that we ensure that any significant issues regarding policy compliance, suspected criminal activity, national security concerns or other security issues are assessed, investigated, documented, acted on and reported to the deputy head and other investigative bodies, as appropriate.

I have been a security practitioner in the federal public service for 15 years, working in the fields of intelligence, security screening, misconduct investigations and security operations. During this time, I have conducted, directed and overseen hundreds of administrative investigations, both relating to employee misconduct and as part of reviews for cause of employee security screening.

Key to my current role is ensuring the integrity of investigations, procedural fairness and due process for those under investigation. It is for these reasons that it would be inappropriate for me to speak to you about certain details or matters that remain under investigation.

As the committee is aware, the current CBSA investigation into allegations first brought forward by Botler AI is still ongoing. I am therefore limited in what I will be able to share about that process.

What I can speak about is our investigation process and investigations in general terms.

I will answer your questions to the best of my ability.

Thank you.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you very much.

Mrs. Block, we'll start with you, please, for six minutes.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Lafleur, for joining us today to provide testimony on what has become a very lengthy and complex study into not only the ArriveCAN app but now also some investigations that are taking place within the department of the CBSA.

I want to confirm this. Have the preliminary findings been made public?

11:05 a.m.

Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency

Michel Lafleur

They have not.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

They have not been made public.

After CBSA president Erin O'Gorman referred the Botler allegations for investigation, were you the individual who was tasked with leading this investigation from the beginning?

11:05 a.m.

Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency

Michel Lafleur

I am the director responsible for conducting investigations within the CBSA, so yes, my team and I were assigned this file.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Was that right from the beginning?

11:05 a.m.

Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency

Michel Lafleur

It was from the beginning, in November of 2022.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Thank you very much.

Let me quote from your opening statement: “The process of investigating allegations takes time and requires a systematic approach to ensure that all evidence is properly gathered and considered prior to final conclusions being made.”

If that is true, if that is important, can you provide any rationale to the committee as to why President O'Gorman would imply to this committee that Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Utano were guilty of misconduct? This happened on January 18 of 2023.

11:05 a.m.

Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency

Michel Lafleur

I'm not exactly sure which statement of the president you're referring to. I can speak to my process, and we have not yet reached any conclusions relating to misconduct.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Do you think it was prudent to share initial findings with the superiors of those involved in the investigation?

11:05 a.m.

Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency

Michel Lafleur

What I can say is that it is normal in the course of an investigation for our investigators to share information with management so that they may take the administrative measures that they feel are required, pending the conclusion of the investigation.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Did you recommend that the report be shared with the deputy heads of Health Canada and the CRA?

11:05 a.m.

Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

You did.

When did you become aware of the suspensions of Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Utano?

11:05 a.m.

Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency

Michel Lafleur

I became aware when the matter became public through The Globe and Mail, I believe it was.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

I'll ask again. Do you think it is appropriate to suspend employees without pay when you have only completed an initial statement of fact?

11:05 a.m.

Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency

Michel Lafleur

I can't speak to the appropriateness of the decisions taken by other departments. Mr. Utano and Mr. MacDonald are not employees of the CBSA. I can't make any assessments relating to their employment.

What I can say, and I think it's important for the committee to understand, is that it is normal in the course of an investigation to ensure that mitigating measures are put in place when there are potential risks. That is something that is in our processes, and it is why we share information to management during the course of the investigation.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

How do you square that with the systematic approach of ensuring that all evidence is properly gathered and considered prior to final conclusions, if in fact employees have been suspended without pay before a thorough investigation has been conducted?

11:05 a.m.

Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency

Michel Lafleur

Management may take any number of administrative measures pending the conclusion of an investigation. I can speak generally. For example, if we're conducting an investigation indicating an employee may be disclosing information inappropriately, management may choose to remove their access to sensitive systems. This is normal in the course of an investigation.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Were MacDonald and Utano allowed to respond before their suspensions?

11:05 a.m.

Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency

Michel Lafleur

That decision was taken by their respective departments. I can't speak to that.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Okay. Thank you.

We have heard contradictory testimony from President O'Gorman as to when the investigation began. Can you provide some clarity for us? Did it start in November 2022 or January 2023?

11:10 a.m.

Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency

Michel Lafleur

We started the investigation as soon as we received the allegations from Botler AI in November 2022.