Government Operations Committee on Feb. 5th, 2024

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

It was November 2022. Okay, so it took you nearly a year to provide an initial statement of fact to the president of the CBSA, which happened shortly after MacDonald and Utano gave testimony critical of President O'Gorman before this committee.

I would just say that it seems odd that there was a sudden breakthrough in the case against these individuals right after they were critical of some of the actions taken and the testimony before committee.

I also want to note that you mentioned in your opening statement that you provide management with reports of your findings. Does this include providing initial statements of fact?

[Michel Lafleur]

We provide information to management as it comes up during the investigation. Usually, it is not in a formal format. This was a different case, as they were not employees of the CBSA.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Was President O'Gorman a part of the management team that you provided reports to?

[Michel Lafleur]

She did receive a copy of the preliminary statement of facts, yes.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Then she had direct access to the investigation of former employees who publicly criticized her. I'm wondering again if you can provide us with your opinion on whether or not this seems like it compromises the integrity of the investigation?

Does it at least not concern you that someone in her position—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You'll have to wrap up, Mrs. Block.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

—who has implied guilt before a final investigation, holds a position in regard to the power to investigate?

[Michel Lafleur]

Mr. Chair, I can assure this committee that none of the actions taken in the course of the investigation were as a result of any evidence heard before this committee. Our investigation is proceeding in parallel with the work of the committee, but not as a result of anything that you heard here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mr. Lafleur.

Mr. Jowhari, go ahead, please.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Mr. Lafleur.

Mr. Lafleur, you've been called as a witness under the study of the ArriveCAN application. For Canadians who are watching today, I'm going to ask some pointed questions, and then hopefully we can get into a more in-depth conversation around the investigation that's going on.

Are you conducting any internal investigation relating to the development of the ArriveCAN application?

[Michel Lafleur]

ArriveCAN as an application is not something that we're investigating. We're investigating procurement matters around that.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Are you investigating anything around procurement of any direct or indirect activities, whether it's procurement, a complaint or people, relating to the ArriveCAN application?

[Michel Lafleur]

Some of the allegations that we're investigating do touch on contracts that were used for ArriveCAN.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

In your testimony, you talked about being limited in what you would be able to share about the process, and you said that you could speak about your investigation process and investigations in general terms.

Can you tell us about your investigation process? I come from a management consulting background, and we usually look at the process, we look at the timeline and we look at the outcome. Can you share with us the steps in this process, some of the anticipated outcomes, the timing of these outcomes and who you share these documents with?

Are you allowed to share these findings at the preliminary stages?

[Michel Lafleur]

Generally speaking, when we receive allegations of employee misconduct, we initiate a preliminary review. The point of that preliminary review is to see if there's any evidence to substantiate whether something occurred or not. If we have evidence to substantiate it, we would move forward to a formal phase of the investigation. If there's no evidence to support the allegations, we would close the file. If there's exculpatory evidence at that point, we would, of course, not move forward with an investigation.

We try to do that preliminary phase within 45 business days. Of course, depending on the case, that may go longer or it may be shorter. Once we have made a decision to move to a formal phase of the investigation, we determine the allegations that the employees would have to respond to. Those are detailed in relation to the CBSA code of conduct.

The respondents in the investigation are then notified of the investigation of these allegations. We then proceed to witness interviews, and we interview the respondents before finally, once all of the evidence has been gathered, drafting an investigation report with our conclusions.

That report is then shared with CBSA senior management, and they are responsible for addressing any founded allegations of misconduct.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Are you in a position to be able to share with us whether you have completed the preliminary review?

[Michel Lafleur]

With relation to...?

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

As it relates to the investigation that you are doing.

[Michel Lafleur]

Yes.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

It looks like there are two stages. If there seems to be some evidence within the preliminary review and within the first 45 days, then you proceed to the second stage, which you call the formal phase.

That first phase is completed. There was a determination that it necessitates moving into a formal phase. You have already moved into the formal phase.

Can you share with us where you are in the process you identified—the formal process of allegations, meetings and conducting interviews, and then meeting with witnesses and all of that? Are you in a position to be able to share with us where you are in that process?

[Michel Lafleur]

We did complete the preliminary review. We have notified the respondents of the allegations against them, and we are proceeding with witness interviews at this time.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

You are in the process of doing the witness interviews.

[Michel Lafleur]

That's correct.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Is it fair to assume, given the fact that you have moved into a formal phase, that you found evidence that you needed to further explore?

[Michel Lafleur]

As I've stated before, that is part of the process. Before moving to a formal phase of the investigation, we have to have some level of assurance that the allegations may have occurred.