Evidence of meeting #104 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Caroline Maynard  Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I call this meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 104 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, October 17, 2022, the committee is meeting to consider matters related to the ArriveCAN application.

As a reminder, please do not put earpieces next to the microphones, as doing so causes feedback and potential injury to our very valued translators.

Welcome back to OGGO, Ms. Maynard. I understand you have an opening statement, please.

The floor is yours.

1:05 p.m.

Caroline Maynard Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for inviting me to speak to this committee today.

It has been three years since my last appearance, but I expect that many of the things that you will hear me say today will be very much in line with what I said in previous appearances.

From the very start of the pandemic, my message has been the same.

In April 2020, as government institutions came to grips with the impacts of remote work, I issued a very clear warning. The extraordinary circumstances we found ourselves in had not suspended the right of access to information, a quasi-constitutional right, nor did they absolve institutions from the duty to document, which is a principle that underpins this right and is at the heart of government transparency.

After all, as I noted in my January 2021 submission to the government's review of access to information, the right of access is contingent on two factors: one, institutions properly documenting their key actions and decisions, and two, the retention of these records.

Simply put, the right to access government records depends on those records actually existing. In those early days of the pandemic, I spelled out the requirements of this duty in practical terms: Heads of institutions needed to ensure that their officials generated, captured and kept track of records documenting decisions and actions. These records also needed to be properly managed at all times.

I asked leaders to set the example by providing clear direction and updating guidance on how information was to be managed in their new operating environment.

Because I foresaw the grave consequences that could arise from a failure to do so, I also offered a prediction for the future. In a statement published in April 2020, I said this: “When the time comes…for a full accounting of the measures taken and the vast financial resources committed by the government during this emergency, Canadians will expect a comprehensive picture of the data, deliberations and policy decisions that determined the government’s overall response to COVID‑19.”

In the months that followed, I continued to insist on the importance of carefully documenting decisions and actions, while efficiently managing information. I then explained how challenges faced by public servants working from home with respect to managing information, capturing it and storing it in government repositories were creating barriers to transparency and eroding the government’s accountability to Canadians.

In fact, you can find such references in my opening remarks for my previous appearances before this committee.

With all this in mind, you can understand that I was dismayed by the release of the Auditor General's report detailing that the Canada Border Services Agency's documentation, financial records and controls were so poor that she was unable to determine the precise cost of the ArriveCAN application.

I reject any suggestion that in retrospect, given the circumstances that arose from the pandemic, a failure of this nature was justifiable or even understandable. I also take issue with the notion that this type of outcome could not have been foreseen.

As I have demonstrated, I was acutely aware of the possibility that this type of scenario could happen, and had been consistently and repeatedly issuing warnings to our leaders to take the necessary steps to avoid it, practically from day one.

In closing, I would like to remind you that my mandate is very specific: I investigate complaints about the processing of access requests by government institutions. I can confirm that the Office of the Information Commissioner has received complaints about requests related to decisions that were made and contracts that were awarded by federal institutions during the pandemic.

As my investigations must be carried out in a confidential manner, I will not be able to comment further on them. Nonetheless, I will be pleased to answer your questions.

Thank you.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you very much, Ms. Maynard. I again appreciate that you were able to join us today.

We'll start with six minutes with Mrs. Block, please.

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Maynard, for joining us today. I appreciated your opening comments, and I think no truer words, back in 2020, were spoken with regard to the collection of information, the duty to document and the retention of information.

I think what we're seeing today, as the Auditor General has pointed out and as you've pointed out in the report of the procurement ombudsman, is that there are gaps in documentation, either in creating it or in keeping it. We don't know whether documentation was never created or whether it was destroyed, and we need to get to the bottom of these questions as a committee that is responsible for ensuring that Canadians are getting good value for the money that is being spent on their behalf.

I know that your office investigates complaints from individuals who believe they have been denied their rights under the Access to Information Act and that you strive to ensure compliance with it. One of my concerns would be the inability of members of Parliament, through the work that they're doing on committees, to be able to access information. We've had to abandon a study that we were doing on outsourcing, with a specific focus on McKinsey, because we were not able to access documents. Not being able to access them meant that there were departments that simply refused to provide this committee with the information necessary to complete that study and come forward with any recommendations.

I also note that part of your role is to function in an advisory role to Parliament and parliamentary committees. What advice do you have for parliamentarians? How can your office help parliamentarians in their ability to access information from departments in trying to undertake their duties?

1:10 p.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

It's difficult for me to provide advice to you as parliamentarians in accessing information outside the system of access to information, because my role is really to implement the act. I know that some of you have used the act, and you know how frustrating that could be as well, because of delays and because of exemptions being used. My office is not able to seek cabinet confidence within our investigations as well. We are the only jurisdiction in Canada in which a commissioner does not have access to cabinet confidence to confirm that the information is actually a secret of cabinet.

I think if there's advice to be given, I've been asking for a legislative review. The government had promised one. Within our legislation right now, there's a mandatory legislative review that was going to be happening in 2020. It led to a list of issues with the system, but the review of the actual legislation will happen only in 2025, I'm told.

As parliamentarians, I think, as members, you have the power to make recommendations with respect to what kinds of statutes you think that Canadians are entitled to. The right of access is not just for you, but for journalists, for Canadians, for members. There's a lot of information out there, and I always said that the records of government are public records. It's not a privilege to access those. Access is a right, and we should not have to struggle to get access to that information. It should be provided as voluntarily as possible.

One thing I advise is to change the legislation to modernize it, to make it more accessible.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Thank you very much.

I think you've touched on a source of frustration for not only parliamentarians but for others who submit access to information requests. It's about the length of time that it might take for a department or a minister's office to respond, and then oftentimes the answers that are given are not as in-depth as they should be.

I know we've talked at committee about putting forward access to information requests in order to get the information that we're not able to get through the request for documents. I also want to note that it does say that the commissioner can issue orders related to a record, including orders requiring institutions to disclose information.

How does that fit within the access to information process? Is that something outside of a request for information? How do you undertake to issue orders related to a record, including requiring institutions to provide information?

1:15 p.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

This is an authority that—

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I apologize. That is our time. You might have to get back to it at another intervention.

Ms. Atwin, you're up for six minutes, please.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Maynard, for joining us today. It's good to see my committee members as well. Most of us are joining from across the country. I'm here from unceded Wolastoqiyik territory in New Brunswick.

I appreciate very much your opening comments as well, the idea that of course the pandemic is not an excuse to not do our due diligence to cut corners, but the contrary. I really appreciate, again, that you reinforced time and time again the need to carefully document any decisions, particularly during a time of crisis.

That's led us here. We've had a very in-depth discussion about what has transpired, which has certainly been a lot since the last time you might have been before a parliamentary committee three years ago.

I was also disappointed with what the Auditor General found. Of course, she put forward eight recommendations. They've been accepted. I look forward to their being implemented. Also, the Office of the Procurement Ombud put forward a procurement practice review that also had 13 recommendations.

I would like to ask you something in reflection of that review. The Office of the Procurement Ombud procurement practice review—it's a mouthful— found that the proactive publication information was missing for 17 of 41 contracts, and that's 41%. In these 17 cases, either the original contract or one or more contract amendments valued at more than $10,000 were not available on the Open Government website. What are the consequences for Canadians when contract information is not proactively disclosed?

1:15 p.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

Currently, proactive disclosure is part of part 2 of the legislation under the Access to Information Act. Part 2 is a section that is not under my authority, so in simple terms, I don't have the authority to investigate and I don't have the authority to accept a complaint with respect to what is proactively disclosed or not disclosed with respect to the lists that we find in part 2. There are no consequences, and there is also no right to complaint with respect to that part.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB

Do federal organizations, or public servants, face any consequences for not fulfilling their proactive disclosure obligations?

1:15 p.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

Not that I'm aware of. Unless you complain to the minister himself or herself and they have some requirement internally with respect to performance, there is no way to determine that somebody is failing their obligation. The commissioner's office does not have the authority.

We asked for the authority in the legislative review. Again, that's something that parliamentary members can recommend for the next round of legislative amendments.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB

Has the Canada Border Services Agency contacted you about implementing the procurement ombud's recommendation concerning proactive disclosure?

1:15 p.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

Again, no, because it's not something that falls within my authorities. The only relationship we have with CBSA is with respect to complaints with access to information requests. Those complaints are active. We are investigating those complaints as we speak.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB

In your experience, how common are issues about proactive publication of federal contract information? Do you have general experience with seeing that happen?

1:15 p.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

I can tell you that a lot of complainants are trying to complain about it because they are aware that this is something that needs to be done, but because it's not within my authority, we don't keep track of who is doing it and who is not doing it. I'm busy enough with the 4,000 complaints that I receive every year under access to information.

I don't have a team that could be doing that, but I know that people in the public are complaining about the legislation not being updated.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB

Sections 13 to 26 of the Access to Information Act set out the exemptions that prevent federal organizations from providing access to government records as part of access to information requests. Much of the federal documentation requested by the committee was provided with redactions on the same grounds as these exemptions.

In your view, do exemptions in the Access to Information Act extend to parliamentary committees' right to access all information contained in these documents? Why, or why not?

1:15 p.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

I believe that the parliamentary privilege of access is a different system. It should be treated differently. I think the Access to Information Act can be a good tool in that some of the exemptions deal with national security and what the test is in terms of releasing some of that information. It's the same thing for commercial information. It could be, again, a tool that could be used to determine whether information would be harmful, but at the end of the day, the act does not apply to a request made under parliamentary privilege. It's a completely different environment.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB

Okay.

Quickly, as my time is ticking down, you mentioned that you have received complaints about access to information requests related to ArriveCAN and what we've been discussing. I know you can't comment further, but is there anything in general you can say about the subject of these complaints that you might be able to share with us?

1:20 p.m.

Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

Generally, I can tell you again that if records don't exist, access does not exist. Within our authority to investigate, we would be looking at what people are asking for and whether it was created, but I'm limited to records. The act applies to records that have been created, documented and managed properly.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB

Thank you very much.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you very much.

Mr. Julian, from the land of the New Westminster Bruins, welcome to OGGO. The floor is yours for six minutes.

1:20 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Mr. Julian, I apologize. It's the Bloc first. We will get to you in six minutes. I'm sorry about that, sir.

Ms. Vignola, please, you have six minutes.

1:20 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here, Ms. Maynard.

I'm going to come at the issue from a slightly more technical and practical standpoint.

The Government of Canada has a website, buyandsell.gc.ca, where people can look up standing offers, supply arrangements and so on. However, the site doesn't necessarily provide information on the contracts related to the standing offers, supply arrangements, requests for proposals and other mechanisms listed on the site.

Open Government is another site where people can look for information on contracts, but only information that goes as far back as 2010 or so. You are lucky if you can find information on contracts from before 2010. It's exciting stuff. You run into the opposite problem on the Open Government site as compared with buyandsell.gc.ca, which doesn't give you the contract number or amendment number. You can find the contract, but not the general details of the contract. Buyandsell.gc.ca doesn't tell you whether the contract is for a standing offer, a supply arrangement or what have you.

Confirming a contract and calculating the exact value of contracts awarded to a particular company or in relation to a specific item is incredibly difficult because you don't know how much the original contract is for. It might be for $50,000. You also don't know the value of the amendments, including the last one, which has to be counted. It might be for $2.5 million.

Doesn't that prove that “open government” is just a saying that doesn't mean much in reality?

Do you have any advice for people who want information and are searching in earnest?