Evidence of meeting #104 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the commissioner for joining us today.
I know you said that some departments are following the guidelines, that they're documenting and that they're following the act as they're supposed to. Some are good and some are bad. Can your office make the determination of whether documents are missing or never existed when it comes to the CBSA in this case?
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
During the investigation, we are definitely looking at whether documents that were supposed to exist have been destroyed or are missing. If something is not there because it was not created in the first place, it's a little bit more difficult. Sometimes we will find an email exchange in which somebody makes an allegation that a really big decision was made, but for some reason there is no record of it. That's something we can definitely comment on.
The act currently applies to records that already exist. If we find evidence during an investigation that something was destroyed, altered or changed or that somebody was telling somebody else to do that, we can definitely look at section 67.1 in terms of whether it was intentionally criminal.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Are things leaning that way, that there was something there and it's not there now, without telling me what it was?
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
During our investigation, we will ask people. We will look at emails. We will look at attachments that are not there. We also welcome submissions by the complainants. Sometimes they know things that we need to know as well so that we can pursue our investigation appropriately.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Has anyone from CBSA reached out to your office for guidance in making sure they comply with the Access to Information Act?
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
It's very difficult to provide advice specifically to the department on cases, because we may be called to investigate those cases. We usually try not to intervene with the way it's managed.
What we do is provide guidance in advance, as I did in 2020, about making sure things are recorded, making sure that people—
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
I know. I'm asking specifically about CBSA here. Has anybody from there reached out?
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
I am not aware of—
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Okay. Can you walk us through the current state of CBSA, specifically the ATIP processes? It appears they may be one of the bad departments here. What challenges are they having, if any?
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Currently, CBSA is the institution for which my office has received the most complaints. Also, it is the institution with the largest number of active investigations. They are having issues in responding on time to requests. They also have a lot of files with respect to refusal and with the application of exemptions to files.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
You're not aware if they're doing anything to address these challenges at all. Right now there is an investigation going on, and ultimately, at some point, maybe recommendations will come down and they'll have to do something.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Yes.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Are you aware that they are doing anything to address the challenges, being the leader in having the most complaints, etc.?
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
I can just tell you that they are working with us on the investigations that we have open with them.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
This is a parliamentary committee, not a court of law. Eventually we'll get around to the business of making recommendations. Do you have any for the committee at this time to consider?
You've walked us through a few things. You mentioned that there need to be legislative changes introduced. What can we do to improve every department and make sure these departments are good actors, rather than failing in some of their duties?
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
The duty to document should be legislated. We should have an actual authority to look at whether things have been documented or not. Right now it's not legislated.
I would recommend as well that you look at the submissions made by the ETHI committee on recommendations for the act.
On cabinet confidences, I should have the authority to review those so that we know they are actual cabinet confidences and not something used for documents that are not meeting the test.
I should have an independent funding mechanism so that I can actually increase the number of investigations and be more timely on those investigations.
There are a lot of things that can be done.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
That is our time, Mr. Bains.
Ms. Maynard, if you have a full list, I welcome you to send it to the clerk, and we'll distribute it to the committee.
Ms. Vignola, you have two and a half minutes, please.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
After listening to what you said, Ms. Maynard, I gather that, if you find that records such as emails have been deleted—which seems to be the case here—you have to report it to the Attorney General, in other words, the Minister of Justice.
Do I have that right?
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Only if the evidence reveals that the records were deleted intentionally.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Sometimes people delete records because they are cleaning up their emails. That, in itself, isn't an issue.
However, when someone deletes a record so that the information can't be accessed, it becomes a crime.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
I see.
Do you have evidence that that occurred in the case currently before the committee?
February 21st, 2024 / 1:45 p.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
We are in the process of investigating various allegations and complaints, so I can't comment on that specific case.
