Government Operations Committee on Feb. 21st, 2024

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I see.

You said that your office had received the most complaints against the Canada Border Services Agency, or CBSA.

Is that normal given that the agency has a public safety role, or is it abnormal?

[Caroline Maynard]

I can tell you that my office undertook a systemic investigation with respect to CBSA after finding that complaints about CBSA had gone up 900%.

We are wrapping up the investigation.

I can say that most of the complaints involve access to information requests related to immigration. CBSA has access to the same information that Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada offices do.

That means the complaints don't involve the issue we are talking about today. Rather, they stem from the fact that CBSA has access to the same information as immigration officers.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay.

Does the agency have enough staff to answer those kinds of requests for information?

If not, is that the reason for the increase in the number of complaints or is that increase attributable to something else?

[Caroline Maynard]

Having the staff to meet the demand is definitely a problem for the agency. It has a good team of access to information officers, but the number of requests keeps increasing.

This year, CBSA received 19,000 access to information requests, as compared to 8,000 two years ago, so that's an increase of 10,000.

In many cases, there is not enough staff to meet the demand. Even if the agency has the necessary financial resources, it is often difficult to find people who want to join an access to information team. It is more difficult for those people to keep up with the new level of demand.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Julian, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I lived through the Harper regime, which was absolutely terrible for transparency. We saw attacks on independent officers of Parliament by slashing budgets. The current Prime Minister came to power saying that he would be moving to be open by default, that the government would be open by default.

Ms. Maynard, you mentioned in your annual report last year, and I quote you:

Over the course of my time as Commissioner, I have observed the steady decline of the access to information system to the point where it no longer serves its intended purpose.

You've noted that you are underfinanced for the work that you need to do on behalf of Canadians, and you've raised a whole number of recommendations that, for the moment, have not moved anywhere, including the duty to document, the need for access to cabinet confidences and an independent funding mechanism.

Would it be fair to say that without the government moving forward on all of those recommendations, the idea of this government being open by default is simply ridiculous, given that the government has not moved to implement any of the measures that would bring us to a more transparent level, particularly when it comes to government procurement?

[Caroline Maynard]

The amendments to the legislation are definitely something that need to be done if we want to have a proper system on access to information that's modernized and that respects what is going on right now in 2024. The act was adopted in 1983, so there's definitely a modernization requirement.

There is also a change in culture that needs to be happening within the government. People need to see transparency as a positive thing, not a negative thing. They have to look at access requests not as something they want to refuse but as something that they want to give.

There's also a need for more tools, human resources and training in terms of responding to this access. Access requests are increasing every year. Canadians are asking for more information, and the tools and resources are not responding to that increase, not just in my office but in all departments.

We need those three big changes to be able to be the government that is the world leader in access that we used to be in 1983.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you. That is our time.

We go over to you, Mr. Brock, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Good afternoon, Madame Maynard. Thank you for your attendance.

You spoke about the CBSA, of all of the government departments, as having the highest number of active complaints. Can you drill down a bit more with respect to that analysis and pronouncement? Specifically, how many investigations is your office currently undertaking right now with respect to the ArriveCAN issue?

[Caroline Maynard]

With respect to the ArriveCAN issue, it's very difficult, because sometimes it's not limited to what happened or the contract, but I think that we have around 15 to 20 cases that may be or are going to be linked to some of the issues that you're investigating here or dealing with. We have received 654 complaints this year against CBSA, and I still have 536 open complaints with respect to CBSA. As I said earlier, a lot of them are with respect to immigration files, because agents have found that they can ask CBSA for information that they could have also asked for from IRCC—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I have limited time, so excuse me for interrupting. Is the ArriveCAN investigation your office is working on exclusively on the CBSA, or are there other government departments?

[Caroline Maynard]

There could be others.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

There could be others. They could be PHAC, PSPC or others relating to ArriveCAN.

[Caroline Maynard]

Yes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

In your opening statement you expressed a deep dissatisfaction with the evidence that you heard from the Auditor General and some of the other pieces of evidence that I'm sure your office was made privy to.

The Auditor General opined that she's more concerned as to what her report does not indicate, and the highlight there is just the vast mass of missing information. We now have evidence, which we heard in various committees, that there are senior executives at the CBSA who are accused of deliberately deleting upwards of 1,700 emails over a four-year period. The person in question just happened to be the vice-president of the CBSA and is now the Chief Information Officer for the Government of Canada, and he, apparently, is the only executive at the CBSA who had issues with his email.

Does that concern you, from a perspective of the ambit and responsibility that you have?

[Caroline Maynard]

It's definitely a concern when we hear allegations like this.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I understand that ultimately, if you discover any suspicions or any evidence of criminality, you must report not to the RCMP directly but rather to the Attorney General—in this case the Liberal Attorney General—who is not independent in the role as Minister of Justice: He is the Liberal Minister of Justice. Do you think, given all the evidence that you may or may not be aware of, that the Liberal team, led by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, actually blocked the ability of the Auditor General to even start an assessment into the audit with respect to the arrive scam issue? Do you think, given all the efforts and attempts by the Liberal bench to block access to information, that you would be in a position to completely bypass the Attorney General and actually report directly to Parliament so that Canadians, and not necessarily the Liberal government, can be aware of your concerns? Would you have the legislative authority to report to the House?

[Caroline Maynard]

I would, because I have the authority under the Access to Information Act to report on special reports if there's something of importance.

However, although the referral would be only to the Attorney General, I could definitely publicize and table a special report if I did such a referral.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Are you prepared to do such a referral?

[Caroline Maynard]

I could be, yes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you very much.

Those are my questions, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Sousa, please. You have five minutes.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Madame Maynard, thank you so much for your review and your proactive assessment of things some years back.

We all share your concerns. I really appreciate some of your recommendations and the thoughtful manner in which you have identified some of those things that have gone missing and things that have not been done correctly.

It's not just you. We have all seen the Auditor General's comments on this issue. The ombudsman has made recommendations. The CBSA and some of the teams have done an interim review because of the same concerns that they see. Of course, your department is where a lot of complaints come to.

The Office of the Information Commissioner, and the commission itself, exists to accommodate many complaints, and that is part of the job. I appreciate the tremendous amount of pressure that goes into that for you.

You've already walked us through the ATIP process with the CBSA. This committee is very concerned about the CBSA's activities and some of the shortcomings that have taken place. We know some of the challenges that you've now identified and addressed.

I want to understand something. Have you spoken to the Auditor General with regard to your review, and have you spoken to her, given her last report?

[Caroline Maynard]

No, I haven't.