Government Operations Committee on Feb. 22nd, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I call this meeting to order.

Good morning. Welcome, everybody, to meeting 105 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, fondly known of course as the mighty OGGO.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, October 17, 2022, the committee is meeting to consider matters related to the ArriveCAN application.

As a reminder to everyone, please do not put earpieces next to the microphones as it causes feedback and potential injury to our valued interpreters.

Welcome back, Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Utano.

I understand we'll be starting with an opening statement from you, Mr. MacDonald. Please go ahead, sir.

[Cameron MacDonald, Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual]

Members of the committee, Canadians have every right to know about ArriveCAN, its costs and its value.

We testified for the first time in November, and we're doing so again today. On November 7, we testified before you, and we told the truth. We didn't give “our” version; we told the truth.

We provided fulsome answers when asked questions by members. Our testimony and evidence contradicted several previous witnesses. We testified that current and former CBSA senior executives had misled Parliament. Just 10 days after our testimony, the CBSA initiated an investigation of Mr. Utano and me based on a complaint that had been filed a year before, in 2022. The CBSA then expanded hastily to look for anything throughout our entire tenure at the CBSA that could demonstrate a hint of misconduct.

In December 2023, without interviewing us or a single witness, the CBSA prepared a report called the preliminary statement of facts. The reality is, this document is nothing more than a collection of baseless accusations, unsupported by any corroborating evidence, with accusations of wrongdoing supported by cherry-picked emails and calendar entries. It should be called the preliminary statement of falsehoods.

This was not given to us until MPs received it. We were always willing to participate in the CBSA's investigation. However, we didn't even know what we were accused of. We requested disclosure of the Botler complaint; the CBSA refused. In any event, no one was interviewed, and the CBSA told us that we had to give them an answer by January 5.

This is a red herring. The CBSA had already crafted the document by December 18 and 19 and had sent it to our employers.

It is very troubling to me that the CBSA states that Botler, the author of the complaint, demanded a contract in exchange for creating these allegations. Even more, to participate in the investigation, the CBSA says that Botler demanded another contract.

I note the CBSA acknowledged that the Botler complaint was mostly about a breakdown in their own business relationships and was a result of a misunderstanding of procurement practices. This has nothing to do with ArriveCAN.

The entire preliminary statement of falsehoods is designed to paint us in the worst possible light. Every single allegation was false, wrong and taken out of context—every single one. They can all be addressed with supporting evidence. You see, unlike others, we never deleted anything because we didn't have anything to hide. However, the extent to which the emails and calendar entries were manipulated is incredible.

One example that shows how ridiculous the preliminary statement of falsehoods is is based on a single calendar entry for a family dinner. The CBSA concluded that I had a close, personal relationship with a consultant because the contractor shared the same name as my own mother.

Now, only based on the preliminary statement of falsehoods designed to torpedo my career, my credibility, by false claims, my employer has suspended me without pay, without even first attempting to have a discussion with me. I'm named in the press repeatedly, often with the suggestion that I did something wrong. Just two days ago, the Prime Minister himself stood in front of the national media and said that it was clear civil servants committed misconduct and that there are investigations and there will be consequences.

This comes after I simply told the truth and informed this committee that I did not make the selection of GC Strategies. In fact, they were not my recommended choice. I've already provided evidence through my testimony previously.

The Auditor General has said there was a glaring disregard for management principles. I have always adhered to core principles, processes and procedures, including closely tracking and managing the costs of ArriveCAN. In fact, I delivered a detailed costing of $6.3 million to my colleague DGs and my supervisor, Minh Doan, just prior to my departure.

I'll just point out to this committee that the Auditor General's report reflected exactly $6.3 million.

I'm concerned that the complaints come from people who tried to extort contracts from the Government of Canada. I'm very concerned that colleagues of mine have been coerced to take part in this investigation against their will. I'm very concerned that thousands of emails have been deleted to hide the truth. The CBSA is delaying access to information requests that I need in order to defend myself, and now the Prime Minister has pronounced guilt to the entire country.

I'm prepared to answer all the committee's questions, and I'll uphold the principles of truth and transparency.

However, it is worrying to me that parliamentary privilege has not protected us as we are now facing reprisals.

For the record, I have served in the civil service for 23 years and until now my career stood unblemished. However, I am suspended without pay based on untested, unproven and false allegations.

We have had to turn to the court to ensure fairness. We testify here looking for the same. The journey ahead may be challenging, but I'm committed to facing it with unwavering honesty and integrity.

Thank you for your time and attention.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mr. MacDonald.

Mr. Utano, the floor is yours.

[Antonio Utano, Director General, Information Technology Branch, Canada Revenue Agency, As an Individual]

Thank you.

Good morning, Mr. Chair and members of this committee.

We appeared before you on November 7, 2023, and told the truth. We have co-operated and will continue to co-operate with Parliament and speak truthfully.

I echo everything Mr. MacDonald said in his opening statement but will add the following.

I was the executive director who became the acting director general of the border technologies innovation directorate in May 2021 after Mr. MacDonald left for Health Canada.

We were responsible for the execution and technical delivery of the ArriveCAN application. What we were not responsible for is signing contracts, as we did not have contracting authority. We were not responsible for approving budgets for ArriveCAN. We were not responsible for selecting GC Strategies to work on ArriveCAN. This was Minh Doan's and the president's decision. We were not responsible for, nor did we have the mandate for, many of the flaws the OAG had enumerated in their report.

I have worked in public safety my entire career, for over 20 years, with an unblemished record. I started at the RCMP working on highly sensitive files with top secret security clearance. Anyone who knows me knows I'm a straight shooter. I take offence to what the CBSA has done to us after all we did was speak the truth.

There have been absurd suggestions of bribery. Have a look at this knapsack. Is this bribery? Does this committee really think I can be bribed for a $17 knapsack? Every single person who worked on ArriveCAN was offered this souvenir. This bag was disclosed to the values and ethics office of the CBSA, as well as our vice-president's office.

CBSA is punishing us because we told the truth, because we told this committee they have been misled by senior officials from the CBSA. I question and highlight why the CBSA, Health Canada and the Canada Revenue Agency are working in concert to punish us. To note, both Health Canada and the CRA did not want to participate in the CBSA investigation, yet they supported suspending us anyway.

I'm now questioning even more why the Prime Minister has publicly pronounced guilt and has said there will be consequences, when after more than a year, the RCMP has not investigated. I'm questioning the investigation, as there is clear evidence of bias and the report is tainted and flawed.

The very starting point is problematic. The person who conducted this investigation and crafted the report was himself involved in the original vetting process of Botler AI in late 2020. Who is Botler AI? They're the ones who wrote to the CBSA back in October 2022 saying that if you're concerned about misconduct, look no further; Botler has an answer. Botler prepared a report. They specifically said they would only share it in exchange for a contract.

Furthermore, I find it interesting that in October 2023, they told this same committee that the CBSA was at risk of extortion. A month later, as the CBSA has indicated, Botler AI would participate in an interview only if they were given a contract for their services. Is that extortion, really?

I am left to question what is really happening here. There are people charged with criminal offences who are suspended with pay. We were suspended without pay based on unsubstantiated allegations and while on medical leave. In the employment world, this is just shy of capital punishment.

All we did was expose the fact that parliamentarians have been misled. We didn't just say so; we provided evidence. On that note, just like the bag, we have evidence that every one of the allegations raised in the report is false, misleading or taken out of context. Had the CBSA conducted the investigation leading to the creation of these reports professionally and honestly, they would have insisted on interviewing witnesses, especially us, and looking at the evidence. Instead, they crafted a document that was designed to show us in the worst possible light, and they were successful. As a result of these reports, our security clearances have been pulled and we are suspended without pay.

I understand that some members are concerned that we spoke to members of this committee when we were contacted. However, understand that we were trying to defend ourselves against this CBSA and our home departments, all three of which have the resources of the federal government targeting us.

We are not even drawing a salary. Of course, we spoke to a committee member when they reached out, as we would have to any committee member who had shown an interest. We've also had to turn to the court because the CBSA will not co-operate and disclose key information required to defend ourselves.

The CBSA acted unfairly, continues to act in bad faith and created a fabrication to distance itself from any accountability.

I am happy to take any of your questions.

In closing, isn't it ironic that the people who are pointing fingers are the ones with the dirtiest hands?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, sir.

We'll start with Mr. Barrett for six minutes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

In the Auditor General's report, she said, “We found situations where agency employees who were involved in the ArriveCAN project were invited by vendors to dinners and other activities.”

Mr. MacDonald, were you invited to dinners, meals or other activities by any ArriveCAN vendors, yes or no?

[Cameron MacDonald]

If I was invited to any dinners or activities with vendors, I disclosed it to my supervisor—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

That's not the question, sir. The question was—and I'll repeat it for you—were you invited?

[Cameron MacDonald]

I'm telling you the truth. I had been invited, but—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Okay, so that's a yes.

Mr. Utano, were you invited to dinners, meals or other activities by ArriveCAN vendors?

[Antonio Utano]

Do you mean at the time, during ArriveCAN? No, and if any—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Were you, at any time before or after the ArriveCAN project, at an event, meal or activity with any of the vendors who were contracted by the Government of Canada to work on the ArriveCAN project?

[Antonio Utano]

The short answer is I was at one dinner, and that was disclosed to my boss, who was Minh Doan at the time. In fact, my boss was present. Any activities or suggestions of gifts or hospitalities were openly and transparency disclosed.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

You waved a bag around when you were making your opening statement. Did you bring bottles from any whisky tastings you were a part of?

[Antonio Utano]

There are no bottles from whisky tastings. That—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Did you participate in any whisky tastings that were sponsored or paid for by vendors who were paid by the Government of Canada for the ArriveCAN scandal?

[Antonio Utano]

This is a perfect example of things being taken out of context. If I could, I'd like to address the—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I have a series of questions. If you can answer the questions, I'm sure you'll have the time to get to those particular details.

Did you accept free alcohol from vendors who worked on ArriveCAN, yes or no?

[Antonio Utano]

In the plural, no. There was one Zoom call event—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. MacDonald, same question....

[Cameron MacDonald]

I had a package arrive at my house.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

What was in the package?

[Cameron MacDonald]

There were little vials of whisky.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

There were vials of whisky.

[Cameron MacDonald]

Yes. These were after contracts were in place.