Evidence of meeting #105 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB
Thank you for that.
Mr. Utano, I have about 10 seconds ticking down now.
Is there anything you want to add to Mr. Barrett's line of questioning? I know he was short on time as well and cut you off a bit about the timing of those whisky tastings or dinners.
11:25 a.m.
Director General, Information Technology Branch, Canada Revenue Agency, As an Individual
The calendar items and emails have been cherry-picked across five years. They were selected to try to do maximum damage with the compression of our calendar items, which most times were not even attended.
I just want to reiterate that we followed the policy. We did disclose to our boss and, for those bags specifically, to the values and ethics office. We did follow the policy and code of conduct.
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
11:25 a.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. MacDonald, in a letter addressed to the committee in January, you wrote that, during your appearance before us on November 7, 2023, you advised us that we'd been misled by the current and former executives at Canada Border Services Agency, or CBSA, regarding who made the decision to award the ArriveCAN contract to GC Strategies.
Who misled us?
11:25 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
I'll try to respond in French, Mrs. Vignola.
As I told you in November, the decision to award the contract to GC Strategies was made by my supervisor, Minh Doan. I read the letters written for the CBSA president. They indicated that it was Minh Doan and the then CBSA president, Mr. Ossowski.
11:25 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
I wasn't aware of that.
There's a third factor, which is that the office of the chief information officer asked that his notes be sent to the current president, Ms. O'Gorman.
I don't know why none of the three public servants were able to provide an answer when asked that question. It's unbelievable.
11:25 a.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
In your opinion, who were those individuals trying to protect?
11:25 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
That's a good question.
I felt that they were trying to scapegoat us and say that we were the ones who made that decision. As you saw during Minh Doan's testimony, when he came before the committee the first time, he said that he had no part in it, that it was his team's doing. Then, he said that he did decide on a certain direction.
11:25 a.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
You believe that they're attempting to protect themselves. Is that correct?
11:25 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
Of course. If there's another reason, I don't know what it is.
11:25 a.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Understood.
In your opinion, why would those individuals try to protect themselves?
11:30 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
Honestly, the facts and information you've been presented with lead me to believe that decisions were made by the former president, Mr. Ossowski. I think that many people opposed it. Minh Doan and Kelly Belanger were promoted without a competition. Minh Doan received a bonus as Canada's chief technology officer. Erin O'Gorman says repeatedly that she doesn't know, she wasn't there, that she's made a lot of changes, but we can't see them.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you.
If I understand correctly, people are just trying to protect the job they have now.
In that same letter, you advised us of the aggressive tactics allegedly used against Mr. Utano.
Why are you the one telling us about those aggressive tactics, not Mr. Utano?
Mr. MacDonald, I'd really like you to keep your earpiece in when I'm talking, since it can get technical at times. It's a matter of respect. Thank you.
Why were you the one to advise us or who decided to tip us off about the aggressive tactics being used against Mr. Utano?
11:30 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
Thank you, Mrs. Vignola.
I wrote a letter to the committee because I'd run out of options. I knew that Mr. Utano had been suspended without pay. I thought it would happen to me too, and the next day, I got a letter advising me that I'd been suspended too.
I'm someone who fights for their rights, and I've tried very hard to provide evidence and be honest with the committee. It's extremely important to me.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Ultimately, by informing us of the situation, you were raising the red flag about something that would likely affect you too, while protecting Mr. Utano and trying to prevent both of you from being suspended without pay.
Have I got that right?
11:30 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
No. That's not necessarily the case.
Following our appearance, we received a letter advising us that there would be an investigation. We knew nothing, at that time, about the preliminary statement of facts and what CBSA had actually done. We didn't see that document before it was provided to you. When I wrote the letter—
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Pardon me. My time is running out.
You're saying that you didn't get the preliminary statement of facts before we did. However, a member of this committee obtained the document before any other member, and he said that you were the ones who gave it to him.
How can we reconcile both those versions?
11:30 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
That's a good question.
In order for CBSA to send it to the committee clerk, it first had to send it to us.
A few days later, Mr. Brock asked to speak with us. He spoke with our lawyer. The investigation report had not yet been sent to the committee member. That was at the beginning. Only a few excerpts were shared to show clearly that the document hadn't been done professionally.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
11:30 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
Our lawyer dealt with the member of Parliament. It wasn't us.
I think that some 300 pages were shared. That is as clearly as I can state it. That said, it wasn't the full document.
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thanks. We have to move on.
We'll have Mr. Bachrach, please, for six minutes.
February 22nd, 2024 / 11:30 a.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to start, Mr. MacDonald, with the claim that you were not interviewed as part of the CBSA investigation. I believe, if I understand correctly, you stated that you were invited to be interviewed, but only after the preliminary statement of fact had been sent to other people in the organization.
Is that an accurate characterization of what you told the committee?
11:35 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Health Canada, COVID and Pandemic Response Secretariat, As an Individual
To set the record straight, we had a few exchanges between the time I was notified of the investigation being opened after my testimony and January 5, which was the last one. Those exchanges happened with my counsel. We were asking for information and disclosure.
The CBSA refused to disclose any information at all. On January 5 we got the final warning, where they said if we didn't do it, they were going to close the investigation. Part of the reason we went to the courts was to make sure that the CBSA couldn't close the investigation.
As we found out through the disclosure of the document—which only happened because there was a production order from this committee—the CBSA had to share it with us. Otherwise, they weren't planning to share it with us at all. We had one page that had six line items on it, and it said specifically that the allegations were from Botler from 2002, but they opened up the investigation, I believe, 10 days to the day after I testified here at OGGO.
11:35 a.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Did you receive a request to participate in the investigation? We had the CBSA investigator before committee, and our understanding is that you were invited several times to participate in an interview as part of the investigation and you declined those requests or did not respond to them. Is that correct?