Evidence of meeting #135 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Stéphane Cousineau  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, People and International Platform, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Robin Dubeau  Acting Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property and Infrastructure Solutions, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Mark Allen  Director General, North America, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Robert McCubbing  Deputy Consul General, The Consulate General of Canada, New York, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Shirley Carruthers  Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Planning, Finance and Information Technology, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Good morning, everyone.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome, everyone, to meeting number 135 of the mighty OGGO.

We have with us today Global Affairs. I understand that Mr. Cousineau will give the opening statement.

Before we start, I will remind everyone, especially our witnesses, to please keep your headphone away from your mic so as to protect the hearing of our very valued interpreters.

We will take a 10-minute break in the middle of the meeting for our witnesses.

Mr. Cousineau, you have the floor for five minutes. Go ahead, please, sir.

Stéphane Cousineau Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, People and International Platform, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Good morning, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to begin by thanking the committee for the opportunity to speak to you about Canada's official residence in New York City, which the government recently purchased. I'm pleased to be able to explain the reasons for the purchase, the significant financial savings that this new residence offers, and how it benefits daily activities. The consulate general in New York is one of GAC's most important missions. Not only does it provide essential services to approximately 300,000 Canadians living in the area, and thousands of Canadians who visit there every year, it also plays a key role in protecting and promoting Canada's trade and investment interests. More specifically, the consulate supports our activities in a city that's not only the financial capital of our largest trading partner, but the financial capital of the world. It provides services to Canadians across a vast territory encompassing five states that collectively account for over $200 billion in bilateral trade annually.

The official residence in New York City is more than just a place of residence. It is an essential venue for hosting key interlocutors in smaller, more personal settings. Federal, provincial and territorial representatives frequently use this space to engage with partners and advance Canada's interests. While this residence and others like it are used as living quarters by our heads of mission, their primary function is as government work sites where important diplomatic events and business meetings are conducted. Over the past two years alone, more than 50 official functions have been hosted at the residence, including business and networking events as well as round table discussions, each providing a unique opportunity to engage with local leaders on issues that matter to Canadians.

GAC is the custodian of the Government of Canada's diplomatic and consular real property abroad. As such, we are responsible for acquiring, maintaining and disposing of the office space, official residences and accommodations used by Canadian personnel abroad.

These acquisitions must comply with Treasury Board policies and Global Affairs' internal guidelines to ensure transparency and value for money.

The replacement of the official residence in New York was carefully planned and executed. It represents up to $7.4 million in net present value savings for Canadians. An aging asset is being replaced with a well-located, smaller and more cost-effective property, positioning Canada to meet both current and future needs.

The previous residence at 12E-550 Park Avenue was acquired in 1961 and was used extensively. The building is now over 100 years old. Concerns about the condition of the current residence were first raised, actually, in 2014. In 2017 a building condition report indicated that many systems were nearing the end of their life expectancy and foresaw a mid-life refit in the early 2020s at today's cost of up to $2.6 million.

After conducting a detailed analysis of the options and following a governance review, GAC, with the assistance of a local real estate expert, appraised 21 properties in seven neighbourhoods of New York, one of the most expensive real estate markets in the world. After careful consideration, Global Affairs Canada selected the property located at 111 West 57th Street.

This recently renovated property is situated in the heritage portion of a building in Midtown, contrary to previous reports suggesting that it was in a skyscraper. It is conveniently located near our office and other international organizations. The apartment is smaller than the previous property, more efficient and cost-effective, and it was purchased at a price that was recently reduced.

Finally, the current official residence is now listed on the market. It was listed at $3.9 million higher than what was paid for the new residence. We are very proud of this replacement transaction that not only promises a substantial one-time savings for Canadians, but also avoids $2.6 million in renovation costs and delivers $115,000 in ongoing annual savings on operational fees—cutting expenses in half—in a real estate market that has consistently shown an annual increase in return on investment.

I look forward to addressing your questions and providing further details on the rationale behind this purchase, the expected benefits for Canadians and the financial considerations involved. Our goal is to ensure transparency and accountability in this matter. We're here today to provide any information you may require.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you very much.

We'll start our six-minute rounds with Mr. Barrett.

Go ahead, please, sir.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

We're here today in the context of Canada's being in a cost-of-living crisis. We have one in four Canadians saying they're going to be using food banks this fall. We know that rent and mortgage prices have doubled, and the Prime Minister's media buddy—who is a making a very healthy salary by any measure compared with Canadian salaries—is getting a $9-million condominium for his use as a residence. I know you said that its primary purpose was as a workspace, but if it's clocking on average about two business functions per month, and he's sleeping there 30 times per month, it sounds as though its primary purpose is to be a residence.

Who was the most senior person to sign off on the decision, sir? Could I have just the name, please?

11:05 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, People and International Platform, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stéphane Cousineau

Mr. Chair, the transaction was signed by the deputy head of mission, based on a written delegation from the director general responsible for real property planning and stewardship.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Who is the director general?

11:05 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, People and International Platform, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stéphane Cousineau

The director general is part of our real property team and was supported by the governance and the process that was reviewed.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

And the DG's name is what?

11:05 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, People and International Platform, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stéphane Cousineau

The DG's name is Franck Hounzangbé.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

It was the deputy head of mission who had the delegated authority, and who was the deputy head of mission at the time?

11:05 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, People and International Platform, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stéphane Cousineau

Mr. Chair, I'd like to clarify that the missions actually are not part of the approval process or the decision-making. The deputy head of mission, the DHoM, actually had the authority from headquarters, from the DG, who had the authority to sign that transaction, which is understandable.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

What was the name, sir?

11:05 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, People and International Platform, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stéphane Cousineau

It was Rob McCubbing.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

That's perfect.

In 2018 the office of the consul general and our the embassy at the United Nations moved into a joint workspace, the primary purpose of which is work, near Grand Central Station in New York City. That facility has an executive dining room, if I understand correctly, and a reception space for up to 150 people. Is that correct? I'm looking for just a yes or no, because I have a substantive question.

11:05 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, People and International Platform, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stéphane Cousineau

Mr. Chair, yes, the environment has an area that can accommodate. Unfortunately, it doesn't have the full kitchen that would be required, which would drive us to have quite high costs to have food provided by a caterer.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Okay, so does Mr. Clark prepare the food himself at his apartment, or is there a caterer or a hired chef who does that?

11:10 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, People and International Platform, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stéphane Cousineau

Mr. Chair, I'd be pleased to answer that question, I'll turn very quickly to the DG—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

I think we know that the answer is that there are third party costs associated with the food preparation, irrespective of where it happens.

My substantive question is why the executive space that was purpose-built in 2018 for use by the consul general and by Canada's ambassador to the United Nations was not sufficient, and why do we have to incur millions of dollars of extra expenses from a $9-million penthouse on Billionaires' Row in New York City for Justin Trudeau's media buddy, which are going to be financed through the taxes of Canadians who are struggling to survive? Why couldn't we use the space that was purpose-built instead of getting this luxurious location, the primary purpose of which is just to be Mr. Clark's lodgings?

11:10 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, People and International Platform, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stéphane Cousineau

Mr. Chair, I welcome this question whereby we can actually articulate the space requirement that we provide and the reason behind it. I'll turn very quickly to the ADM of real property, who can articulate the needs that are actually identified as we provide this kind of space. I'll turn to Mr. Robin Dubeau, who can articulate more details about it.

Robin Dubeau Acting Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property and Infrastructure Solutions, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

As in opening remarks, we said that the official residence serves as a place of living, but also as a platform for representation. We do have representation space at the consulate, which is now amalgamated with the mission to the United Nations. We did that in 2018 to create savings and synergies. There is representational space in the office, but it doesn't allow for the kind of activities and representation that the official residence would. The new official residence has been acquired. It is smaller. It can accommodate smaller—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Thanks very much. We heard all of that information already. It took you a minute to not offer us any new information.

We had previous representatives in the space. I think the now Senator Pamela Wallin occupied the previous residence and identified it as sufficient. The $1.8-million estimate for renovations of the old residence suddenly became insufficient in 2023, which was right around the time that Mr. Clark became the new head of mission or the new consul general there. What happened that got the ball rolling there? Was it Mr. Clark who initiated the request? If it was not Mr. Clark, who was it?

11:10 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, People and International Platform, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stéphane Cousineau

Mr. Chair, I'll take this question.

I'd like to start by saying that there was no influence from Mr. Clark. He was not involved in the consultation and decision process.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Would you be able to table all correspondence on the subject of the new residence, or the transition to a discussion on a new residence, instead of renovations?

11:10 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, People and International Platform, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Stéphane Cousineau

Mr. Chair, as was explained, we have a governance that's actually managed by headquarters and we'd be pleased to actually table what the whole process is and how we got to the—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

The correspondence, sir—you'll table the correspondence?