Government Operations Committee on Sept. 26th, 2024

[William Trudel]

That's an excellent question.

With regard to housing in Canada, let's start at the top with the federal government. The federal government will mainly influence what I call money and finance through the Superintendent of Financial Institutions, the CMHC and the Business Development Bank of Canada.

I'm going to talk about the provincial governments, the Province of Quebec in my case, because that's what I know best. The latter will impose statutes and regulations respecting property development, urban development and land use planning. The municipalities will have to apply all those regulatory frameworks. However, the three levels of government don't really talk to each other on a daily basis. I don't know whether that's the case elsewhere, but that's what happens in the province of Quebec.

I think we'll have to establish a national strategy focusing on the housing crisis that we're currently facing, for which standing committees will have to be struck representing the three levels of government. Those committees will have authority to issue good recommendations and even to make decisions to improve matters and to simplify the regulatory framework of the three levels of government at the same time. If one level of government works alone, that effort will naturally yield a partial result.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you.

I've noticed some of the work you're doing with heritage buildings and some of these other things. There are existing regulations in each unique municipality. What is the work that goes into it? You have to provide some type of proposal to show the importance of the project. How long does it take to do that work in order to just get started?

[William Trudel]

We are in the process of managing a $2 billion development project at Place Fleur de Lys, in the Quebec City region. It involves a former shopping centre that dates back to the 1960s and sits on three million square feet of land located next to the Centre Videotron, five minutes from Quebec's parliament.

I purchased the property for $60 million in July 2018 but couldn't secure the zoning I needed to begin my project until late 2022, despite massive community support for the project and the fact that the four neighbourhood committees in the neighbourhood surrounding our property and more than 63 community organizations had written in support of our foundational project for Quebec City. It was exactly like in The Twelve Tasks of Asterix: we had to find Permit 38 on the 17th floor, which doesn't exist. It took me nearly five years to get the zoning to begin construction of a single unit, even though the community supported the project. The three levels of government have generated so much regulation that we're still tilting at windmills in an attempt to resolve something simple.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Again, that speaks to the challenges. I've seen projects get introduced and then get derailed because maybe a certain special interest group in the area doesn't want something to happen. The levels of government, the communities involved and so many different things can either get projects going or ultimately halted.

Maybe I'll ask Mr.—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid you don't have any more time, Mr. Bains.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That's it, but thank you very much.

We'll go to Mrs. Vignola for two and a half minutes, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Trudel, we've been talking for some time now about the number of people required to complete paperwork, about certain inconsistencies and how difficult it is to reach objectives as a result of those inconsistencies and a lack of communication.

In real terms, how much more rent does all this red tape mean that renters will have to pay for housing?

[William Trudel]

An actual figure is hard to estimate, but the Trudel finance team has calculated the taxes: school taxes, municipal taxes, the green space tax, development royalties and a foundational transit system tax, if that's the case. Now there's no more federal HST, which is a step in the right direction, but there's still a provincial QST. There are also—and this is no joke—an elevator tax and an elevator music tax. If you calculate all this, the total comes to $500 a month, an amount that won't apply for only one, two or three months, but rather for the entire lifespan of the property. Consequently, for every unit, that's a monthly amount of $500 that won't come back to us. In other words, the first $500 that people pay out won't be used to construct the building. What's more, construction costs have doubled in recent years.

In the Quebec City region, you need a miracle to build affordable housing units at $1,027 a month thanks to the MLI Select program of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, or CMHC. It's a good program. Access to a brand new, high-quality home located in an integrated living environment will change the lives of ordinary people, single people and vulnerable people.

However, we propose that CMHC enhance the program to enable us to build two or three-bedroom units for single-parent and reconstituted families. According to the federal criterion, a unit that rents for $1,027 is currently an affordable unit. However, at $1,027 a month, we have no choice but to build a small unit suitable for a single person. It's impossible to build a two or three-bedroom unit because the bank would never agree to finance the building. I've tried for years to explain to CMHC that the MLI Select program has to be enhanced to give single-parent and reconstituted families a chance. Everyone tells me I'm right, but nothing ever changes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much. Your testimony is eloquent and important.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mr. Bachrach to finish off the day.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I have one more question for you, Mr. Beaulieu-Guay. You talked about participation and the fact that small businesses and interested parties, which perhaps don't have as many resources, have differential access for advocacy around regulatory processes. Big companies are able to spend millions of dollars on lobbyists and influence regulatory change, whereas ordinary citizens, not-for-profit organizations and small businesses have much less access.

I'm wondering about participation funding. When there are consultations or reviews of regulations that take place, should that be accounted for, somehow, so that government is hearing in an equitable way between large and small players in the environment?

[Dr. Louis-Robert Beaulieu-Guay]

Yes, one solution would be to give those actors the means to participate. The most important point is that the most open and inclusive consultations occur at the end of the regulatory process, during the consultation and comment period, when people have 30 or even 90 days to comment. At that stage, it's already a done deal.

So we need to enable people to participate before they get to this stage, which is quite difficult. Even the regulatory bodies can't know who will be affected by or interested in their draft regulations. In many cases, they'll rely on their family and friends; that is to say, the people who often participate. Those actors informally become privileged.

I unfortunately don't have a solution for you. We need to find a way to include these people earlier in the process. There has to be a greater diversity of stakeholders, bringing to the same table small businesses, citizens, non‑governmental organizations and citizens' groups to allow them to have a say before the decision is made.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much, witnesses, for being with us today. We appreciate all the feedback and information you've given us. It's greatly appreciated.

Before we adjourn, again, happy birthday to Mr. Sousa.

I just want to update you regarding Global Affairs. We're still working on Minister Joly with her schedule. I notice that she was able to do some outreach with the Canada-Lebanese friendship group, so I'm hoping she'll make time for us as well. We will be open to whatever recommendations.

For Ms. Nicholson, the witness we had planned for October 3, we've set aside two hours. Right now, Global Affairs is trying to dictate to us one hour only. The clerk and I are working on that situation.

With that, we are adjourned.