Government Operations Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2024

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Sure.

[Stéphane Cousineau, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, People and International Platform, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

It's going to be a pleasure for me to clarify this point in response to the question I had, which is, how do we ensure that the decision-making is internally managed by real property expertise with no influence? We have very clear governance that involves all the real property experts at the table and the different stakeholders. There's ongoing interaction with the mission, which is understandable, because we need to make sure that the requirements are very clear.

As part of that process, absolutely, we always make the mission aware, but there's no involvement in the selection or any purchase. They're only there to ensure that, as we apply the process and the plan, the limitation is there for any impact on their operation, which is why we always check with the mission to make sure that we can proceed with our plan, because they need to continue their operation.

Once again, this process complied with all policies, all processes and chapter 5 of our real property framework that we have in place. It was well executed, and we still believe that it's a great investment for the Canadian taxpayer.

Thank you.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

At what price threshold, if any, do real property purchases require the authority of the Minister of Foreign Affairs?

[Stéphane Cousineau]

Mr. Chair, I can take that question.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Sure, whoever has the information, please answer.

[Stéphane Cousineau]

Mr. Chair, I'll be pleased to take that question on authority.

The minister adheres to the delegation of authority that we obtain from Treasury Board. In this case, the authority to purchase an official residence was $10 million, and we followed that delegation authority that was provided to the minister and the departmental authority.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Mr. Cousineau, on the earlier questions that Ms. Nicholson didn't have the information for, do you know if a review has been activated on this?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We only have time for a yes or a no.

[Stéphane Cousineau]

I will say yes, and the information has been provided already.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Bains.

Mrs. Vignola, please go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Nicholson, I'm listening to you, and having experienced it in another life, I feel like I'm talking to somebody who's covering for another person, covering someone else's mistake or decision, because that's what has to be done.

In all sincerity, I hope that is not the case. If it is, I honestly think it is a shame. Having said that, I have to ask you, are you covering for someone?

[Emily Nicholson]

Mr. Chair, I appreciate the honourable member's concern. This really is a simple matter of a different choice of wording. If we could go back in time, we would write the email differently to make it more clear, but the information that I've provided to you and all of the testimony that I've given to you are accurate.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay.

In 2019, the transaction limit for the purchase of an official residence was significantly increased to $10 million, if memory serves. In the past, some homes were built for $16 million. That was the case of a chancellery in Peru more than a decade ago. Only an authorization was required at the time.

Did Global Affairs Canada ask Treasury Board to increase the transaction limit so that it would no longer have to apply for an increase?

[Emily Nicholson]

Mr. Chair, I have a very cursory knowledge of our authorities and would need to refer that question to our chief financial officer, perhaps. I'm not sure that Stéphane knows that answer either, so we would need to come back to you to give you a fulsome response.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you.

Mr. Bachrach, go ahead, please.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Ms. Nicholson, have you ever met Mr. Clark?

[Emily Nicholson]

Mr. Chair, I have never met Mr. Clark.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

How did you know that “green light” was a mis-characterization of Mr. Clark's role?

[Emily Nicholson]

Mr. Chair, as I stated in my opening remarks, after providing the initial summary, which was intended as a very initial overview, to the minister's office on June 17, we asked our colleagues in the property branch to provide a more fulsome explanation or chronology of events. In that chronology of events, it was very clear that the head of mission was very much aware that a process was going on and under way, which predated his arrival, and was in no way influential.

When I saw that information and realized how things could be interpreted from my initial email, I took the liberty of ensuring that both the department and the minister's office had the best available information at the time.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

What prompted the request for a more fulsome explanation of events?

[Emily Nicholson]

Mr. Chair, as evidenced by the article in the National Post, our office was not aware of this transaction. While we had the initial conversations with the property branch to gather the initial information provided on June 17, there was certainly an acknowledgement that this transaction would.... There was interest within the associate's office of having a more fulsome understanding of that transaction. As such, the request came from our office to pull together a detailed chronology.

Mr. Chair, it's also quite complex. It was spanning over 10 years. It involved numerous decision points. So, for our office to have a clear understanding of what exactly had happened from start to finish, we requested to have that information put forward to us. Once we had it ready, we relayed that to the minister's office. It just happened to be on July 25.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I looked up the definition of the term “green light”. The most common North American definition is “give permission to go ahead with”. Now, if Mr. Clark had given permission to go ahead with the purchase, would that have been inappropriate?

[Emily Nicholson]

Mr. Chair, I would need to relay that question to.... I would be giving you my notional understanding, which would be probably inaccurate, so I would refer the question to my colleague, Stéphane Cousineau, if that would be acceptable.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

There's only time for a very brief answer, please.