Evidence of meeting #144 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was program.
A video is available from Parliament.
Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I am not concerned.
I meet with the president every week because, as you mentioned, she's the President of the Treasury Board. We meet every Thursday morning. Before every meeting, we have a briefing with her and have her full attention. We have great discussions about the files that will be presented on Thursday morning.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
It would be impossible to have her full attention, because she's giving half of her attention, currently, to the transport file.
Now, I know that, in 2019, the Treasury Board issued further guidelines, yet we're still getting the lapses we're seeing here through the ECCC audit. A couple of months ago, we received feedback that Global Affairs Canada, through its audit, was also having some problem with the oversight of the distribution of funds.
I have to take it back again to the President of the Treasury Board. I'm asking whether you believe she's giving her full attention to the oversight of these grants and contributions and whether she's been as accessible to you. I believe it would be very difficult for her to achieve this, given, frankly, how thin she's being spread across departments. As I said, we really seem to have a part-time president right now, given the additional duties she's been given.
Given that we have these lapses at ECCC and Global Affairs Canada despite your issuing of the guidelines in 2019, I'll ask you this one more time: Do you really believe Canadian taxpayers are getting value for money?
Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
From my perspective, I have access to the president when I need to, and she is extremely accessible on all the files I am in charge of.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
Again, it's unfortunate, because the results we are seeing through—thank goodness—these audits are indicating that the oversight is simply not there at this time.
As I mentioned, she is the President of the Treasury Board. Now she is taking on the ministry of transport, which is a very intense file. Then, of course, given the difficult situation of the Prime Minister and the Liberal Party at this time, I'm concerned her efforts are even further diluted by the possibility of her posing a leadership campaign as well. This is the President of the Treasury Board. She is supposed to have oversight of all the funds of our nation. Her energy is divided, and not one way. She is running one department that I imagine is completely consuming, but she is also responsible for the department of transport while, at the same time, possibly making a leadership bid.
It's quite concerning, Mr. Chair.
Thank you.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you very much.
Next is Mr. Sousa, please, for five minutes.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for being here today.
I was listening to the line of questioning that just happened in regard to the President of the Treasury Board, an individual of great calibre: a lawyer, a professor, a strong advocate for consumer rights, someone who was quite active in the securities commission, someone who I worked with prior when I was in the role of finance minister and was relying on the exceptional abilities of this individual, who is extremely accessible and very engaged and active in the issues, as well as being President of the Treasury Board at the time. She's quite the champion in the role that she plays in Treasury Board, and we really do rely on some of that oversight she provides.
However, regarding the question about this particular issue of these internal audits, I mean, they're standard. This is something that's prescribed. This is something that's mandated to be done, regardless of who the ministers may be at any given time.
She herself was a previous minister of procurement and operations for government, and she did an exceptional job during COVID in regard to some of the negotiations that had to be done. I've always found her to be extremely attentive, if not even more meticulous, in trying to push forward on the matters at hand, because she does review things tremendously. When I see and talk to her, she's well informed.
Given that this is a mandate that's required, for reviews is it not prudent, then, to do them and to provide recommendations to improve upon the issues? I mean, this is not a static issue. This is an ongoing relationship that's required in order to improve the operations of government. Is that not true?
Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Indeed, I always welcome internal audit reports. There is always a lot to be learned and also a lot to share with other departments. The other departments will have seen the report from ECCC, and I'm sure they're going to look at that and compare it within their own organization if they need to make improvements, so it's more, in fact, than only ECCC. It is across the board.
Again, to come back to audits, the minister herself announced in March of this year that Treasury Board, TBS, will be doing a horizontal audit on procurement. This is my team doing a horizontal audit on procurement, again, to look at processes that we have in place, the governance that we have and the internal controls, and we'll be able to communicate the result of that audit in the new calendar year.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
That's right, and then, of course, there are the policy directives. That's the responsibility of the deputies and the senior officials. I think I heard you correctly that then there are directives by which those managers and functional specialists are obliged to do the action. There's a division here, and there's a protection measure. This is a buffer, right?
On the allegations or the notion that somehow there's interference or there are preferences made by certain individuals of government, be it the ministers or deputy ministers, are you satisfied that there is no interference? Are you satisfied with the way the process is being done to protect taxpayers from any issues of collusion, let's call it?
Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
In the process that I've highlighted in my opening remarks, there are a lot of checks and balances at different levels of the government, inside departments and also from a TBS perspective. Based on all the processes that we have, I am comfortable with what I'm saying.
A lack of documentation, like I said, is disappointing, but that's something that could be fixed and could be fixed in a timely manner.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
I think one of the issues that I was most disappointed with was the issue of standardization and not having some of those across-the-board issues, which are being resolved, hence the reason we do these internal audits: so that we can have continuous improvement.
My last question is, do you see the president or any minister providing interference or obstructions in these processes?
Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I've never seen any of those things.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Have they been accessible to you? Has the President of the Treasury Board been available to you when necessary?
Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yes, she has been available to me.
Liberal
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Nice try. Try some more substantive questions than that, Charles.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
I appreciate it.
I do have another round of questions. I'll come back to you.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thanks.
We will now go over to Mrs. Vignola for two and a half minutes of questions.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Boudreau, as I understand it, in terms of grants, you determine who can receive them based on certain criteria, but as regards contributions, there is some form of accountability.
When grants or contributions are awarded to a company, for example for the development of green technologies, we have an objective in mind. Canada becomes an investor. In fact, I should say that citizens, through their taxes, become investors. It may be that the investment will go awry if we don't reach the goal we've set. It's also possible that this objective will be achieved.
If it is achieved, if the technology succeeds, are there any clauses in the contract with the company whereby Canada can get a return on this investment, for example an investor's right of, say, 2% for Canadian taxpayers? Is there such a clause, or is money being invested with no direct return? There's going to be some through taxes and jobs created, but what do we get in the way of direct return?
Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Thank you for the question.
Before I answer it, I'd like to come back to the word “grant”. As we said earlier, there are eligibility criteria, and these must be verified each time a new grant is given.
I'll now come back to your question. There are always terms and conditions. There are terms and conditions attached to every grant or contribution, and they're probably going to relate to what you've just listed. That said, I can't think of any specific examples. These terms and conditions make it possible to determine the commitments and responsibilities of each of the parties.
Maybe Ms. Thomas has more information on this subject.
Executive Director, Costing, Charging and Transfer Payments, Treasury Board Secretariat
I would just add that, according to our directive, the terms and conditions of contribution agreements require, among other things, that the agreement provide for the recovery of an overpayment, funds that are not spent or expenses that are not in accordance with the agreement. This is one of the general clauses found in agreements.